Cowboys @ Vikings post game

[makila]

Kirk Cousins faced a 63% pressure rate (highest in his career). For reference of how insane that is, Patrick Mahomes faced 37.5% pressure rate against the Buccaneers in the 2020 Super Bowl

Anyone else see this ^

I remember watching that SB and Mahomes was the most out of sorts I've ever seen him in his career. The face that Cousins almost doubled that pressure rate blows my mind. I'm not sure what was going on with this OL but I hope it never happens again. Obviously losing Darrisaw didnt help but this needs to get figured out ASAP.

Yup I saw that. The line was horrendous. No one would have been able to play behind it. I think you said it up thread, I did in the chat during the game, I was surprised how poorly the coaches tried to adjust. Or lack of adjustments I should have said. We are fortunate a key player wasn't hurt behind it.

JJ said after the game it is pretty hard to complete a pass when kirk is already being sacked when he (jj) is just coming out of his break.

Absolute trash.

[J. Kapp 11]

Kirk Cousins faced a 63% pressure rate (highest in his career). For reference of how insane that is, Patrick Mahomes faced 37.5% pressure rate against the Buccaneers in the 2020 Super Bowl

Anyone else see this ^

I remember watching that SB and Mahomes was the most out of sorts I've ever seen him in his career. The face that Cousins almost doubled that pressure rate blows my mind. I'm not sure what was going on with this OL but I hope it never happens again. Obviously losing Darrisaw didnt help but this needs to get figured out ASAP.

As highly as I think of KOC, this part is on him.

JJ spoke up about it. He said the Vikings kept calling for deep routes and 7-step drops, even though the line was in shambles and Cousins was getting pummeled. No adjustment to shorter routes and quick throws, which likely would have worked.

Disappointing. Hoping the team flushes this quickly and moves on. It’s probably good that they only have four days between games.

[chicagopurple]

This is the continuation of a decades long failure on the part of the Vikings organization. Coaches have come and gone but the attitude that the OL is a secondary concern remains. It has been decades since we had a noteworthy OL. Its not a sexy part of the roster that sells jerseys but it is the bedrock that drives a winning team that goes deep into the playoffs. Darrisaw is the only real big effort (possibly successful?) the team has made for the OL and that by itself means nothing. OL is probably the most TEAM focused part of football. You need a half dozen guys who are quality players , who learn to work in synchrony. They perform a highly technical "dance" that requires a lot of coordination. Its also one of the most brutal areas on the field with a guaranteed high injury rate so there needs to be game ready back ups. The Vikes have built NONE of this for nearly 20 years. Nothing will change till they build the OL right. Even if we will the draft lottery and get the next great QB.....it wont mean squat without an OL.

[Texas Vike]

It’s probably good that they only have four days between games.

I thought it was very, very interesting that JJ spoke about this in the press. In the story I read, the writer mentioned that KOC was not made available to the press and reporters were therefore not able to ask for his response to JJ's statements. It's always interesting to see how the blame game plays out via the press (see the Jets and how Z. Wilson may be benched bc he refused to take any of the blame for that offense's ineptitude).

Of course, we also lost because our D was horrendous.

It IS good that we only have 4 days in the sense that we don't have time to linger on our blowout loss, but on the other hand, playing Belichek is always tough. It's like having very little time to cram for a very hard exam. But I guess it gives the superior schemer (Belichek) less time to draw things up for us too, so it might be an advantage. I'd really like to see a bounce back game from KOC. He will need to get creative. Belichek loves to take away your strongest asset, so expect JJ to get lots of attention. Dalvin, Mattison, AT, and KJ may need to step up in this one.

[CharVike]

This is the continuation of a decades long failure on the part of the Vikings organization. Coaches have come and gone but the attitude that the OL is a secondary concern remains. It has been decades since we had a noteworthy OL. Its not a sexy part of the roster that sells jerseys but it is the bedrock that drives a winning team that goes deep into the playoffs. Darrisaw is the only real big effort (possibly successful?) the team has made for the OL and that by itself means nothing. OL is probably the most TEAM focused part of football. You need a half dozen guys who are quality players , who learn to work in synchrony. They perform a highly technical "dance" that requires a lot of coordination. Its also one of the most brutal areas on the field with a guaranteed high injury rate so there needs to be game ready back ups. The Vikes have built NONE of this for nearly 20 years. Nothing will change till they build the OL right. Even if we will the draft lottery and get the next great QB.....it wont mean squat without an OL.

You hit it right on the head. When the Chiefs OL became not so good and Mahomes couldn't play the same they didn't mess around. They threw the entire starting 5 in the garbage and did a complete rebuild. They also used every tool available. Trade, promotion from within and FA. Looks like Kewi-Brain is following the Speilman blueprint and drafting a guy and plugging him in the lineup. Hello that won't work.The Speilman blueprint should only be looked at as what not to do. He's actually using it to rebuild. Decades with a junk OL is unacceptable. A great QB won't save a junk OL. But a dam good OL can make a decent QB turn into a good QB. With this piece mail approach we will be drafting another body and plugging him into the lineup.

[JJBreaksRecords]

People used to always fault Zimmer for being hard headed, but the truth is, Donatell is even worse. That was the worse defensive game I have ever seen, and Donatell made no adjustments, not even after halftime. At least Zimmer made some adjustments, but they were too little, too late. I wish we could go back and have Zimmer just as our DC, and get rid of Donatell. OFC Zimmer would have to be a bit more aggressive.

KOC was kind of the same. He just didnt change the plays at all. Paresons just kept running right through the Oline, as well as just about everyone on the Dline. It was almost comical to watch. You have to make adjustments and RUN the dam ball. Need to run the ball so Cousins can do what he is best at, PLAY ACTION. I really hope KO learned his listen fast. He is young, and should bounce back. But Donatell is just Zimmer in a 3-4 D.

[VikingLord]

People used to always fault Zimmer for being hard headed, but the truth is, Donatell is even worse. That was the worse defensive game I have ever seen, and Donatell made no adjustments, not even after halftime. At least Zimmer made some adjustments, but they were too little, too late. I wish we could go back and have Zimmer just as our DC, and get rid of Donatell. OFC Zimmer would have to be a bit more aggressive.

KOC was kind of the same. He just didnt change the plays at all. Paresons just kept running right through the Oline, as well as just about everyone on the Dline. It was almost comical to watch. You have to make adjustments and RUN the dam ball. Need to run the ball so Cousins can do what he is best at, PLAY ACTION. I really hope KO learned his listen fast. He is young, and should bounce back. But Donatell is just Zimmer in a 3-4 D.

Its really puzzling to watch the Vikings defense through the midpoint of this season.

On the one hand, they've been good at getting pressure rushing four and good at creating turnovers.

On the other hand, they've been equally adept at letting receivers run wide open and being seemingly unable to stop what I consider to be fairly predictable capabilities of opposing offenses. For example, everyone knows that Josh Allen likes to run. Yes, I understand it is difficult to counter a QB like that, but come on, it can be countered. Maybe it is putting Asamoah out there more to spy. Maybe it is a more disciplined pass rush to force the QB to move up and then have the spy collapse down on him when he sees that. But just don't let the guy run all over you.

For all the experienced players on the Vikings defense, it is more than a little disappointing to watch them struggle to identity and negate obvious tendencies of opposing offenses so far.

For the offense, the Vikings have some real limitations in terms of the physical makeup of their offensive linemen. Bradbury isn't a large, physical center and he's never going to become one. His strength is in movement and blocking on the move. When he's forced to stand in and hold ground against the larger interior tackles, he's always going to struggle with that. Ingram has size, but lacks the feet and hand placement needed to counter rushers. He's a bull in the ground game provided he can get his hands on his opponent. He does it, but unfortunately not as consistently as one would like. O'Neill is competent. I'd say he wins the majority of the battles, but can also be perp walked back to the QB against the more physical ends. Cleveland is also a bit small for a guard. He struggles in much the same way Bradbury does against larger interior players. His strength is his intelligence and movement, but he's not a power player and if he can't get to the spot where he can win with leverage he's going to be tossed and neutralized. Darrisaw is probably the most well-rounded starting lineman on the OL as he has size, power and movement. Unfortunately, he's hurt, and his replacement is another guy in the Bradbury-Cleveland mode. Brandel has the heart to play and works his behind off, but he lacks the size and power to take on more physical ends.

The Vikings under Zimmer and Spielman built an offensive line tailored towards players who could move and block well on the move while holding up long enough in pass blocking to enable a quick short to medium passing attack used primarily to complement a strong run game. There is nothing wrong with that composition in theory provided the offense is designed around those relative strengths and limitations. I'm not sure the offense KOC wants to run is consistent with that player composition, however, and it shows up most starkly in games where the Vikings face a larger, more aggressive defensive line.

Kwesi made few changes to the OL this offseason, adding just Ingram in the draft, but I doubt we'll see him sit pat this coming offseason. I expect at a minimum we'll see moves made at center and guard in the draft, and probably in FA too. I think the Vikings will look to improve their size and strength on the interior line. They'll have to honestly evaluate Ingram to decide if he has the feet to be an effective starting guard. O'Neill will probably stay at RT, while Darrisaw is a lock at LT. But that interior has to be addressed, and I have every confidence KAM will make sure it is.

[J. Kapp 11]

This is the continuation of a decades long failure on the part of the Vikings organization. Coaches have come and gone but the attitude that the OL is a secondary concern remains. It has been decades since we had a noteworthy OL. Its not a sexy part of the roster that sells jerseys but it is the bedrock that drives a winning team that goes deep into the playoffs. Darrisaw is the only real big effort (possibly successful?) the team has made for the OL and that by itself means nothing. OL is probably the most TEAM focused part of football. You need a half dozen guys who are quality players , who learn to work in synchrony. They perform a highly technical "dance" that requires a lot of coordination. Its also one of the most brutal areas on the field with a guaranteed high injury rate so there needs to be game ready back ups. The Vikes have built NONE of this for nearly 20 years. Nothing will change till they build the OL right. Even if we will the draft lottery and get the next great QB.....it wont mean squat without an OL.

Come on.

It was a bad game. It happens. But there’s no way anybody can say the team has refused to address the O-line. All five guys were drafted in the first or second round. Whether they’ve developed properly is up for debate, although I would argue that O’Neill, Darrisaw and Cleveland are generally playing at a high level, last week notwithstanding. And Bradbury has had easily his best season, entering the Dallas game 9th among centers per PFF.

The Cowboys had a ferocious pass rush. The Vikings didn’t adjust to get the ball out of Cousins’ hand quicker. They couldn’t rely on the running game, where Dallas was vulnerable, because they were so far behind. And the line got hit with injuries. You can scream “depth!” all you want, but name me one team in this league that could lose linemen the quality of Darrisaw and Cleveland and hold up with backups against that pass rush, especially with constant 7-step drops and slow-developing downfield routes.

The game sucked. There wasn’t a single aspect that went well. About the only guys who played remotely well were Dalvin Cook and Ryan Wright. They stunk. That doesn’t mean they will stink Thursday against the Patriots.

But if they lay another egg like they did against Dallas, I’ll probably be applying for the position of Conductor on the Panic Train.

[chicagopurple]

Management has continued to pick smaller OL prospects that were not big ticket items and hoped that they would pan out into smaller guys who master technique. This has been a pattern for years and has not worked at all. They also seem to have a penchant for picking out guys that have injury history/predilictions....the Ol has just been on big clusterF for almost a whole generation of fans. As I said before, once in a blue moon they make a wise choice like Darrisaw but one winner on an OL surrounded by back ups posing as starters will never succeed.

[VikingLord]

Management has continued to pick smaller OL prospects that were not big ticket items and hoped that they would pan out into smaller guys who master technique. This has been a pattern for years and has not worked at all. They also seem to have a penchant for picking out guys that have injury history/predilictions....the Ol has just been on big clusterF for almost a whole generation of fans. As I said before, once in a blue moon they make a wise choice like Darrisaw but one winner on an OL surrounded by back ups posing as starters will never succeed.

Darrisaw was not a smaller OL prospect, nor was Ingram. Darrisaw was taken under the Spielman-Zimmer regime, while Ingram came in under KAM-KOC. However, KAM-KOC made no significant moves regarding OL, so it's hard to tell if they did that because they liked the makeup of the OL for the most part or they wanted to see how the players fit into the scheme KOC wanted to run. I'm going to guess it's the latter, but this offseason should tell us how they view it.

I do think OL was considered a priority, at least in terms of where the current crop of players was drafted and the fact that every one of them was drafted by the Vikings. Darrisaw was a 1st rounder as was Bradbury. O'Neill, Cleveland and Ingram were all 2nd rounders IIRC. At least in terms of draft position, the Vikings have invested heavily in their OL. While each of those OL have some limitations, none were afterthoughts.

I really think the issue with the OL comes down to the type of players on the OL matched with the type of offense the Vikings want to run. It is pretty clear that under Spielman-Zimmer the Vikings wanted to emphasize zone blocking schemes and the ability to run. They valued smaller, more mobile OL over larger, more physical ones. That approach can work provided the rest of the offense is aligned with that strategy. KOC's offense is more balanced, which tends to expose the deficiencies of the current OL a bit more.

KAM's challenge this coming offseason will be adjusting the player composition on the OL to better match KOC's more balanced offensive approach. The Vikings are going to need a bigger, more powerful center and ideally a bigger, more powerful left guard. They also need to honestly assess Ingram's potential to improve to the point he can be a reliable right guard. I think they'll hold pat at the tackle positions.

[CharVike]

Management has continued to pick smaller OL prospects that were not big ticket items and hoped that they would pan out into smaller guys who master technique. This has been a pattern for years and has not worked at all. They also seem to have a penchant for picking out guys that have injury history/predilictions....the Ol has just been on big clusterF for almost a whole generation of fans. As I said before, once in a blue moon they make a wise choice like Darrisaw but one winner on an OL surrounded by back ups posing as starters will never succeed.

Darrisaw first 2 years have been injury filled. Wasn't that the case in college also. He was destroyed against Dallas. Vikings head coach Kevin O'Connell said after Sunday's 40-3 loss to Dallas that there Darrisaw suffered the concussion on the first play of the second quarter, when Dorance Armstrong Jr. bull-rushed Darrisaw on his way to one of Dallas' seven sacks. We all agreed that for the purpose of the board PFF grade would be the bible although a guy like PP came out and questioned the value of it. Since Bradberry is rated a top 10 center and will be a FA next off season the offers should be coming in like crazy. We actually did him a favor by dropping the 5th year option. Very good and young OL players get offered way over their value because the need is great and very few hit the FA market. I've been #### about the size of OL players we draft for a long time. Dixon and Stringer were +700 ILBs back in the 90s. I would only draft monsters.

[chicagopurple]

Its just disgusting that you have to look all the way back to the 90's to see a respectable, intimidating Viking OL.
I dont buy the silly scheme of a smaller but mobile OL. Todays great teams have Large AND Fast guys. Its just a cop out to say that we have an OL thats good for a specific game plan but we arent running that offense. That drivel is just a built in excuse to provide the team more years of second chances. The current GM/Coach are going to claim that this is not the OL and QB they would prefer. Well, you get paid to maximize with what you have. Get to it. Dont waste our time trying to run your pet scheme when you dont havethe right players. Coaching is about adapting. Not falling back on excuses.

[J. Kapp 11]

Management has continued to pick smaller OL prospects that were not big ticket items and hoped that they would pan out into smaller guys who master technique. This has been a pattern for years and has not worked at all. They also seem to have a penchant for picking out guys that have injury history/predilictions....the Ol has just been on big clusterF for almost a whole generation of fans. As I said before, once in a blue moon they make a wise choice like Darrisaw but one winner on an OL surrounded by back ups posing as starters will never succeed.

Darrisaw first 2 years have been injury filled. Wasn't that the case in college also. He was destroyed against Dallas. Vikings head coach Kevin O'Connell said after Sunday's 40-3 loss to Dallas that there Darrisaw suffered the concussion on the first play of the second quarter, when Dorance Armstrong Jr. bull-rushed Darrisaw on his way to one of Dallas' seven sacks. We all agreed that for the purpose of the board PFF grade would be the bible although a guy like PP came out and questioned the value of it. Since Bradberry is rated a top 10 center and will be a FA next off season the offers should be coming in like crazy. We actually did him a favor by dropping the 5th year option. Very good and young OL players get offered way over their value because the need is great and very few hit the FA market. I've been #### about the size of OL players we draft for a long time. Dixon and Stringer were +700 ILBs back in the 90s. I would only draft monsters.

Darrisaw wasn’t destroyed against Dallas. He had two bad plays. Otherwise he graded well per PFF.

He also wasn’t always injured in college. He had a sports hernia coming out, which lingered into his rookie year. You can’t categorize a guy with concussions as injury prone, especially when the second concussion came a week after the first one, on a play where the Dallas DLman basically head-butted him.

Drafting monsters doesn’t work. No matter who you pick, they need to have good feet, great balance and solid athleticism. Ingram is a big, strong dude, but he might as well be named Ed Overset because his technique in pass blocking is terrible. You don’t want pipsqueaks, but you can’t just draft lumbering oafs, either. These edge rushers are freaking machines.

And when they line up edge rushers on the inside in wide sets, or run stunts and twists, NFL guards have a real problem. They’re used to mauling people in tight quarters, but modern DCs are forcing them to play in space like tackles. Guys like Ingram don’t know how to play like a tackle. Even Quentin Nelson in Indy, a perennial all pro, is struggling with this new trend.

Bottom line, you need big, strong athletes along the O-line, not just monsters.

[CharVike]

Darrisaw first 2 years have been injury filled. Wasn't that the case in college also. He was destroyed against Dallas. Vikings head coach Kevin O'Connell said after Sunday's 40-3 loss to Dallas that there Darrisaw suffered the concussion on the first play of the second quarter, when Dorance Armstrong Jr. bull-rushed Darrisaw on his way to one of Dallas' seven sacks. We all agreed that for the purpose of the board PFF grade would be the bible although a guy like PP came out and questioned the value of it. Since Bradberry is rated a top 10 center and will be a FA next off season the offers should be coming in like crazy. We actually did him a favor by dropping the 5th year option. Very good and young OL players get offered way over their value because the need is great and very few hit the FA market. I've been #### about the size of OL players we draft for a long time. Dixon and Stringer were +700 ILBs back in the 90s. I would only draft monsters.

Darrisaw wasn’t destroyed against Dallas. He had two bad plays. Otherwise he graded well per PFF.

He also wasn’t always injured in college. He had a sports hernia coming out, which lingered into his rookie year. You can’t categorize a guy with concussions as injury prone, especially when the second concussion came a week after the first one, on a play where the Dallas DLman basically head-butted him.

Drafting monsters doesn’t work. No matter who you pick, they need to have good feet, great balance and solid athleticism. Ingram is a big, strong dude, but he might as well be named Ed Overset because his technique in pass blocking is terrible. You don’t want pipsqueaks, but you can’t just draft lumbering oafs, either. These edge rushers are freaking machines.

And when they line up edge rushers on the inside in wide sets, or run stunts and twists, NFL guards have a real problem. They’re used to mauling people in tight quarters, but modern DCs are forcing them to play in space like tackles. Guys like Ingram don’t know how to play like a tackle. Even Quentin Nelson in Indy, a perennial all pro, is struggling with this new trend.

Bottom line, you need big, strong athletes along the O-line, not just monsters.

Darrisaw is a very good player but regardless of the circumstances or chain of events he has missed more time than anyone would like his first 2 years. He was head butted which is not his fault and should have been a penalty. A bad break for the young guy. Ingram is forced into an on the job training situation. One of the negatives based on scouting reports was that he needed to improve his pass blocking. Against the WFT he was run over by a very big DT for sack. It happens. But he will improve as a bass blocker. You can play at any size. I prefer the bigger guy no more than that.

[Chi-Town Vike]

I walked away from the game when the ceremony for retiring Marian Hossa's number came on.Even the Stanley Cup showed up for it. When i returned the Steels Bengals game was on. At least the Vikings did what no one else has been able to do to the Cowboys like ever. They got em Kicked of the air . An accomplishment in itself. Oh, Did the fans that attended the game get their refunds yet? It's the right thing to do.