Kirk Cousins: Baker or Chef?

[fiestavike]

I'd take Wilson for this Vikings team over any you've mentioned.

Over Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Brees, Marino, Montana, Favre, Elway in their prime?!! I hope you’re joking.....

Many of those players wouldn't be as successful today as they were in their own era. That's not a knock on them, its just that they had to have a litany of skills, abilities and attributes, many of which had more to do with character than 'QB play'. The rules have created such specialization that QBs today are better passers. So we have a 'golden era or QB play'. I think its a sham and most of the QBs today would be total duds in last millenium's NFL. Point is comparisons across time of QB play are extremely dubious.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Lol ok so I guess yards per game means nothing. I guess it’s ok that he can’t surpass 200 yards in a game 36 times in his career. But all the other “greats” don’t touch that number given how many years he’s played. That is awful. That’s not a “great” quarterback.

Tony Romo has the same YPA as Wilson. Does that mean he’s one of the “greatest of all time” too. This is simply one of those classic stumphunter statistics that you go hunting for just because it helps your argument. And then when you bring up other stats, those don’t count or matter. Only stumps stat does.

Yet his net yardage per pass attempt is ranked 18th.



Blame his OL and weapons all you want but my entire point behind this is, he’s not a bad QB, but he is in no way, shape or form one of the “greatest of all time”. The greatest of all time type QBs don’t have all these inconsistencies over their careers. Wilson has more than many think. He’s nowhere near comparable to Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Dan Marino, Montana, Favre, Elway and so on. Pull out all the stats you want. If anyone somehow thinks Wilson is better than a guy like Peyton Manning, your taking the best drugs on this earth

YPA was in response to your ypg point, it isn't the main reason I think he is elite. #2 all time in TD% and passer rating, and most importantly, he wins.

ANY/A penalizes a QB for having a bad offensive line. Something Wilson has had for most of his career. AY/A, which doesn't include sacks, he is #2 again.

Two of the QBs you listed, Montana and Elway, have a significantly lower YPG than Wilson...

To get this thread back on track, Wilson is a prime example of an elite chef, and that is the real thing you don't like about him. He doesn't run a traditional offense and probably wouldn't have nearly as much success if he was asked too. I think he would still be good, but not great. His OC is probably the least important OC in football.

His inability, or unwillingness, to play the role of a Baker, is why people underrate him. He is not a traditional passer, so some think that makes him a lesser passer.

Cousins on the other hand, runs an offense exactly as it is called. His OC needs to be great, or he will struggle.

That’s not what I “don’t like about him”. I simply think he’s overrated as a passer. He’s good but not elite IMO. I’ve gone down this road many of times on here and continue to say the same thing. The greatest QBs of all time didn’t struggle nearly as much as Wilson did throwing the football.

A bad game for Russell Wilson when you look across the board was 17 for 33 for 150 yards 0 TDs and 1 INT

A bad game for Peyton Manning when you look across the board was 29 for 39 for 230 yards 2 TDs and 1 INT.

There is a difference there. And it’s a big one. Never will he compare to Peyton Manning as a passer. Ever. And Manning is one of the greatest of all time. Same goes for Brady and others

Again, I’m not saying he’s bad. But he sure isn’t one of the greatest of all time. He’s a good QB but not one of the greats. And if you think you’re going to change my mind or think I’m going to say “you’re right Wilson is one of the greatest of all time”, you’re dreaming. No less wasn’t it you last time we had this argument that tried to accuse me of thinking he’s overrated because he’s a black quarterback? Yeah pretty sure it was. So in the end, agree to disagree. I’m not going down this road with you again

[StumpHunter]

YPA was in response to your ypg point, it isn't the main reason I think he is elite. #2 all time in TD% and passer rating, and most importantly, he wins.

ANY/A penalizes a QB for having a bad offensive line. Something Wilson has had for most of his career. AY/A, which doesn't include sacks, he is #2 again.

Two of the QBs you listed, Montana and Elway, have a significantly lower YPG than Wilson...

To get this thread back on track, Wilson is a prime example of an elite chef, and that is the real thing you don't like about him. He doesn't run a traditional offense and probably wouldn't have nearly as much success if he was asked too. I think he would still be good, but not great. His OC is probably the least important OC in football.

His inability, or unwillingness, to play the role of a Baker, is why people underrate him. He is not a traditional passer, so some think that makes him a lesser passer.

Cousins on the other hand, runs an offense exactly as it is called. His OC needs to be great, or he will struggle.

That’s not what I “don’t like about him”. I simply think he’s overrated as a passer. He’s good but not elite IMO. I’ve gone down this road many of times on here and continue to say the same thing. The greatest QBs of all time didn’t struggle nearly as much as Wilson did throwing the football.

A bad game for Russell Wilson when you look across the board was 17 for 33 for 150 yards 0 TDs and 1 INT

A bad game for Peyton Manning when you look across the board was 29 for 39 for 230 yards 2 TDs and 1 INT.

There is a difference there. And it’s a big one. Never will he compare to Peyton Manning as a passer. Ever. And Manning is one of the greatest of all time. Same goes for Brady and others

Again, I’m not saying he’s bad. But he sure isn’t one of the greatest of all time. He’s a good QB but not one of the greats. And if you think you’re going to change my mind or think I’m going to say “you’re right Wilson is one of the greatest of all time”, you’re dreaming. No less wasn’t it you last time we had this argument that tried to accuse me of thinking he’s overrated because he’s a black quarterback? Yeah pretty sure it was. So in the end, agree to disagree. I’m not going down this road with you again

I like your made up stats from their bad games. What are you basing them on?

I did not accuse you of not liking Wilson because he was black. I believe that is why a number of people don't like him, but I think you don't like him because he is so different from the Viking's current QB.

[Pondering Her Percy]

That’s not what I “don’t like about him”. I simply think he’s overrated as a passer. He’s good but not elite IMO. I’ve gone down this road many of times on here and continue to say the same thing. The greatest QBs of all time didn’t struggle nearly as much as Wilson did throwing the football.

A bad game for Russell Wilson when you look across the board was 17 for 33 for 150 yards 0 TDs and 1 INT

A bad game for Peyton Manning when you look across the board was 29 for 39 for 230 yards 2 TDs and 1 INT.

There is a difference there. And it’s a big one. Never will he compare to Peyton Manning as a passer. Ever. And Manning is one of the greatest of all time. Same goes for Brady and others

Again, I’m not saying he’s bad. But he sure isn’t one of the greatest of all time. He’s a good QB but not one of the greats. And if you think you’re going to change my mind or think I’m going to say “you’re right Wilson is one of the greatest of all time”, you’re dreaming. No less wasn’t it you last time we had this argument that tried to accuse me of thinking he’s overrated because he’s a black quarterback? Yeah pretty sure it was. So in the end, agree to disagree. I’m not going down this road with you again

I like your made up stats from their bad games. What are you basing them on?

I did not accuse you of not liking Wilson because he was black. I believe that is why a number of people don't like him, but I think you don't like him because he is so different from the Viking's current QB.

my made up stats huh? I just told you earlier that Wilson had 36 games in 8 years under 200 yards. Manning has 36 games under 200 in 18 years. Peyton Manning’s average bad game was nowhere near Wilson’s average bad game is my point.

And yes, last time we argued about this that’s exactly what you were referring to. And I told you I was done with the argument because you just tried to pull that crap out of you rear. But now you’re saying you don’t think I like him because he’s not like Kirk Cousins You literally have no idea what you’re talking about dude

[StumpHunter]

I like your made up stats from their bad games. What are you basing them on?

I did not accuse you of not liking Wilson because he was black. I believe that is why a number of people don't like him, but I think you don't like him because he is so different from the Viking's current QB.

my made up stats huh? I just told you earlier that Wilson had 36 games in 8 years under 200 yards. Manning has 36 games under 200 in 18 years. Peyton Manning’s average bad game was nowhere near Wilson’s average bad game is my point.

And yes, last time we argued about this that’s exactly what you were referring to. And I told you I was done with the argument because you just tried to pull that crap out of you rear. But now you’re saying you don’t think I like him because he’s not like Kirk Cousins You literally have no idea what you’re talking about dude

I never said you didn't like him because of the color of his skin. I said it was a reason some people underrated him as a passer, and you took that as a personal attack, which was weird to say the least. Clearly there is an emotional reason for you not thinking he is a great passer since all the facts and logic say he is, and I believe that emotional reason is your attachment to the Vikings and particularly their QB.

There is no logical reason to post made up averages for under 200 yard passing games, or even drawing an arbitrary line there. Even the "overrated" nature of the argument is an emotional one. You have no logical reason for not thinking Wilson is great, but persist in the argument, because of your love for your team.

Wilson proves that mobility behind a bad line can still lead to QB success, and that a QB can win in spite of their OC. It flies in the face of every excuse you have for Cousins, and so you diminish Wilson's role as a passer to make yourself feel better.

[808vikingsfan]

That’s not what I “don’t like about him”. I simply think he’s overrated as a passer. He’s good but not elite IMO. I’ve gone down this road many of times on here and continue to say the same thing. The greatest QBs of all time didn’t struggle nearly as much as Wilson did throwing the football.

A bad game for Russell Wilson when you look across the board was 17 for 33 for 150 yards 0 TDs and 1 INT

A bad game for Peyton Manning when you look across the board was 29 for 39 for 230 yards 2 TDs and 1 INT.

There is a difference there. And it’s a big one. Never will he compare to Peyton Manning as a passer. Ever. And Manning is one of the greatest of all time. Same goes for Brady and others

I think other things dictate a stat line for a QB. Coach, defense, score etc.. I don't think a stat line tells the whole story. Just an example, picked a random year (2014) and looked at RW's stats. His passing stat lines, nothing to write home about. Never had a game with more than 2TD passing. Most yards thrown in a game was 339. And yet, the Seahawks record that year was 12-4. Why? They had a great defense so he didn't need to pass or score a lot. I don't think Peyton had the support of a good D (except his last with Denver and he won the SB with 13-23 141yd 0TD 1INT). The other thing that affects RW's passing stats is he doesn't just pass the ball. He totaled over 800 rushing yds that year.

I know you keep saying "overrated as a passer". I've never heard that but I'll trust what you say. If you drop the "overrated as a passer" argument and judge him just as a QB, where does he rank? ... My argument is he's the complete package and I still stand by what I said earlier. I'd take him over any QB for this Vikings team.

IMO, with Cousins, if something doesn't happen in the first 2.5 sec of a passing play, it's basically a dead play. With Wilson, every play has the potential to be a big play.

Manning would be a close 2nd but I think he would be a harder fit because of the complexity, audibles, etc... Baker, chef, I think Manning would be labeled a surgeon.

[Pondering Her Percy]

my made up stats huh? I just told you earlier that Wilson had 36 games in 8 years under 200 yards. Manning has 36 games under 200 in 18 years. Peyton Manning’s average bad game was nowhere near Wilson’s average bad game is my point.

And yes, last time we argued about this that’s exactly what you were referring to. And I told you I was done with the argument because you just tried to pull that crap out of you rear. But now you’re saying you don’t think I like him because he’s not like Kirk Cousins You literally have no idea what you’re talking about dude

I never said you didn't like him because of the color of his skin. I said it was a reason some people underrated him as a passer, and you took that as a personal attack, which was weird to say the least. Clearly there is an emotional reason for you not thinking he is a great passer since all the facts and logic say he is, and I believe that emotional reason is your attachment to the Vikings and particularly their QB.

There is no logical reason to post made up averages for under 200 yard passing games, or even drawing an arbitrary line there. Even the "overrated" nature of the argument is an emotional one. You have no logical reason for not thinking Wilson is great, but persist in the argument, because of your love for your team.

Wilson proves that mobility behind a bad line can still lead to QB success, and that a QB can win in spite of their OC. It flies in the face of every excuse you have for Cousins, and so you diminish Wilson's role as a passer to make yourself feel better.

You were implying that’s why I didn’t like him. And in turn , I ended the argument.

What kills me with you is your button pushing mentality. I’m not comparing Wilson and cousins. I’m not referring to anything to do with the Vikings. 808 was the one that mentioned wanting him on this team. My Wilson argument, more than once, was simply to do with Wilson and Wilson only. You’re the one that’s trying to stir shi* up with this like you do with any post I make.

I have no clue what Kirk Cousins has to do with this but we all know you can’t keep his name out of your mouth in any thread. So I guess it doesnt surprise me. Either way, I simply feel (just a personal opinion) that Wilson doesn’t impress me as a passer. I’ve said it for a long time now. It has nothing to do with my team or Kirk cousins. Not sure where you got that. It’s almost like you’re trolling by bringing that up. Because I’m not comparing them at all or even discussing the Vikings other than what 808 said.

[StumpHunter]

I never said you didn't like him because of the color of his skin. I said it was a reason some people underrated him as a passer, and you took that as a personal attack, which was weird to say the least. Clearly there is an emotional reason for you not thinking he is a great passer since all the facts and logic say he is, and I believe that emotional reason is your attachment to the Vikings and particularly their QB.

There is no logical reason to post made up averages for under 200 yard passing games, or even drawing an arbitrary line there. Even the "overrated" nature of the argument is an emotional one. You have no logical reason for not thinking Wilson is great, but persist in the argument, because of your love for your team.

Wilson proves that mobility behind a bad line can still lead to QB success, and that a QB can win in spite of their OC. It flies in the face of every excuse you have for Cousins, and so you diminish Wilson's role as a passer to make yourself feel better.

You were implying that’s why I didn’t like him. And in turn , I ended the argument.

What kills me with you is your button pushing mentality. I’m not comparing Wilson and cousins. I’m not referring to anything to do with the Vikings. 808 was the one that mentioned wanting him on this team. My Wilson argument, more than once, was simply to do with Wilson and Wilson only. You’re the one that’s trying to stir shi* up with this like you do with any post I make.

I have no clue what Kirk Cousins has to do with this but we all know you can’t keep his name out of your mouth in any thread. So I guess it doesnt surprise me. Either way, I simply feel (just a personal opinion) that Wilson doesn’t impress me as a passer. I’ve said it for a long time now. It has nothing to do with my team or Kirk cousins. Not sure where you got that. It’s almost like you’re trolling by bringing that up. Because I’m not comparing them at all or even discussing the Vikings other than what 808 said.

I did not imply anything of the sort. You just chose to take it that way.

Cousins is the main point of this thread. I keep trying to get back on topic and you keep trying to derail it. Wilson versus Cousins is a prime example of chef vs Baker. Success vs failure.

[Pondering Her Percy]

You were implying that’s why I didn’t like him. And in turn , I ended the argument.

What kills me with you is your button pushing mentality. I’m not comparing Wilson and cousins. I’m not referring to anything to do with the Vikings. 808 was the one that mentioned wanting him on this team. My Wilson argument, more than once, was simply to do with Wilson and Wilson only. You’re the one that’s trying to stir shi* up with this like you do with any post I make.

I have no clue what Kirk Cousins has to do with this but we all know you can’t keep his name out of your mouth in any thread. So I guess it doesnt surprise me. Either way, I simply feel (just a personal opinion) that Wilson doesn’t impress me as a passer. I’ve said it for a long time now. It has nothing to do with my team or Kirk cousins. Not sure where you got that. It’s almost like you’re trolling by bringing that up. Because I’m not comparing them at all or even discussing the Vikings other than what 808 said.

I did not imply anything of the sort. You just chose to take it that way.

Cousins is the main point of this thread. I keep trying to get back on topic and you keep trying to derail it. Wilson versus Cousins is a prime example of chef vs Baker. Success vs failure.

Lol ok keep telling yourself that dude.

And when I started responding to this thread, the talk was primarily Wilson. So I responded to Wilson. I haven’t been comparing him to cousins as all. But I guess I’m derailing the thread though.

That’s like comparing cousins to Brady in the other thread. I don’t get the point. Cousins isn’t Brady, he’s not Wilson. So why talk about it? What next? Comparing Kyle Sloter to Peyton Manning? What’s the point of comparing them when everyone already knows he’s not as good as Brady or Wilson? Maybe when it comes to arm talent vs Wilson but overall QB they aren’t comparable. So why bother? Just so you can continue to rip cousins like you always do?

[CharVike]

I think the Hawks also played a little D. The LOB is what won the Super Bowl for them. During the 2012 to 2015 seasons, the Seahawks led the league in scoring defense, allowing the fewest points scored each year for four years straight. The only other team to accomplish this feat were the Cleveland Browns of the 1950s. You can give the teams success to Wilson or call what really happened. They played some tremendous D. Should have won another Super Bowl, thanks to the D, but Wilson threw an interception to Butler which ended that chance. If our D leads the league in points given up this year we might finally win a Super Bowl. I don't see our D playing at that level but I certainly hope they do. Then will it be Cousins or the D that won it? Wilson can't carry a team to a Super Bowl championship. Give him a D that don't allow many points and he'll have a chance. Wilson couldn't carry our team like he did the LOB. He's not good enough.
The Seahawks became the fastest team to score in a Super Bowl when they had a safety 12 seconds into the game. They also became the first team to ever score with a safety, interception return for a touchdown and kickoff return for a touchdown in a Super Bowl. That was all Wilson right?

[CharVike]

I think the Hawks also played a little D. The LOB is what won the Super Bowl for them. During the 2012 to 2015 seasons, the Seahawks led the league in scoring defense, allowing the fewest points scored each year for four years straight. The only other team to accomplish this feat were the Cleveland Browns of the 1950s. You can give the teams success to Wilson or call what really happened. They played some tremendous D. Should have won another Super Bowl, thanks to the D, but Wilson threw an interception to Butler which ended that chance. If our D leads the league in points given up this year we might finally win a Super Bowl. I don't see our D playing at that level but I certainly hope they do. Then will it be Cousins or the D that won it? Wilson can't carry a team to a Super Bowl championship. Give him a D that don't allow many points and he'll have a chance. Wilson couldn't carry our team like he did the LOB. He's not good enough.
The Seahawks became the fastest team to score in a Super Bowl when they had a safety 12 seconds into the game. They also became the first team to ever score with a safety, interception return for a touchdown and kickoff return for a touchdown in a Super Bowl. That was all Wilson right?

It's only pre season I know but Wilson played a good game. But he did miss a guy by a mile who was wide open. Even the announcers said it was a bad throw. The bigger problem for them was the defense gave up points. Zim needs to tighten the secondary. Don't let guys run free. They better clean that up quickly. We face some good QBs week 1 and 2.