PHP's "Draft Day is almost here" Mock

[VikingPaul73]

Now THAT is an elite defense!!!!

We’re not even CLOSE to an elite defense. Not even close

[PurpleKoolaid]

Now THAT is an elite defense!!!!

We’re not even CLOSE to an elite defense. Not even close

I agree. We aren't close to what we were even. Its one of the reasons I wanted to rebuild the D this year. Its why I didnt want Griff back (he isnt close to the DE he was even a few years ago) and why I didnt want Barr back (he is one of those players that only really looks when he wants to, like the end of last season, for a new contract). I also think Zimmer is a master of the D, and we dont need to waste good picks on what might be good DE's (i am personally more afraid of what we do at DT, we need to draft a great DT and a lot of fans want a flashy DE and we will get burned by that). If we dont move don in the draft, getting players like Ford and Lindstrom could change use into a very good offense. Not the most exciting players to draft first, but I really think they would give Cousins at least a full second more time to read the D before they are in his face. Look at tape last year and Cousins was constantly under pressure. Which he isnt good at avoiding, to put it mildly. And think of Cook with more holes to run through. He is so quick and agile at the point of attack. I could go on and on about the Oline, I have all off season, but I still think its the only way to get to the SB. The game is won in the trenches.

[PurpleMustReign]

That’s what I’m saying, there aren’t really stats to prove it. The stats are flawed given what I’m trying to argue. That’s why I said before it’s more agree to disagree. Some will think Wilson is “elite”, some will think he’s great, some will think he’s overrated in certain ways. There just isn’t a stat out there for what I’m really arguing. Which is why I say it’s more of the eye test than anything. I mean I respect guys opinions of them thinking he’s a legit passer. I just think he’s overrated as a passer and his legs bail him out more than anything which in turn, results inflated numbers. He struggles to stay in the pocket and deliver. It is what it is. Just my two cents

Most people think Wilson won the Super Bowl. I had to refresh my memory but they also had a decent defense. Found this below.

The Legion of Boom and the rest of the 2013 Seahawks defense led the league in points, yards and turnovers. And, of course, this defense completely shut down Peyton Manning — who was having the best season of his career — and Denver’s record-setting offense in Super Bowl XLVIII.

That's playing some defense. They were top 5 all time easily and that D won it for them. Not the 2000 Ravens D but very close. Plus they got turnovers which is something we currently don't do very well. Win the TO battle and typically win the game. IMO Wilson wouldn't guide our current team to the Super Bowl because he's not good enough to overcome our weaknesses. If Zim starts preaching TOs it would help us out tremendously. But his scheme seems to be short with getting TOs.

Interesting point about the turnovers. I remember two ywlears ago when they went 13-3 the biggest knock on the defense was they were in the bottom third for creating turnovers. Last year didn't seem much better.
With the talent they have you'd think turnovers would come fairly easily, but it seems to be difficult for them.

[StumpHunter]

Not to belabor it then, but you realize that if you are going to define your argument around something purely subjective like the "eye test", then you really can't be wrong.

Which is fine, but at that point hardly worth debate.

For what it's worth, I think Wilson's objective stats and accomplishments to this point in his career merit his compensation, and apparently the Seahawks agree with that assessment. He's not the GOAT, and mostly likely will never be viewed as the GOAT, neither objectively nor subjectively, but at least from the objective viewpoint, he ranks up there with the best of his peers and, in many statistical categories, the best of all time at his position as well.

Put another way, if the Vikings could have Russell Wilson at QB, I'd take him in a heartbeat, even over Cousins. He'd be the best QB the Vikings have had behind center since 2009 Brett Favre.

That’s what I’m saying, there aren’t really stats to prove it. The stats are flawed given what I’m trying to argue. That’s why I said before it’s more agree to disagree. Some will think Wilson is “elite”, some will think he’s great, some will think he’s overrated in certain ways. There just isn’t a stat out there for what I’m really arguing. Which is why I say it’s more of the eye test than anything. I mean I respect guys opinions of them thinking he’s a legit passer. I just think he’s overrated as a passer and his legs bail him out more than anything which in turn, results inflated numbers. He struggles to stay in the pocket and deliver. It is what it is. Just my two cents

Here is pro-tip: If there isn't a stat out there that can defend your argument, and in fact every stat says the opposite of what you are trying to argue, you probably are on the wrong side of said argument.

Inflated numbers because his line sucks and he has to scramble to buy time?

[CharVike]

They don’t measure it. I look at it more as the eye test. I can guarantee that Wilson’s completions off of a scramble or outside of the pocket crush anyone else’s. When I say a pure passer I’m referring to accuracy, overall arm talent, ability to stand in the pocket, makes reads, etc. Wilson doesn’t do a great job of standing tall in the pocket and delivering. So these numbers tell me nothing. How many times does he scramble and eventually a WR loses his man and he dumps it off to them? Where’s the measurement for standing tall in the pocket and delivering a strike? I don’t believe there is. That’s my point. If you have great scrambling ability, corners can’t cover forever. It’s going to result in much easier completions.

Not to belabor it then, but you realize that if you are going to define your argument around something purely subjective like the "eye test", then you really can't be wrong.

Which is fine, but at that point hardly worth debate.

For what it's worth, I think Wilson's objective stats and accomplishments to this point in his career merit his compensation, and apparently the Seahawks agree with that assessment. He's not the GOAT, and mostly likely will never be viewed as the GOAT, neither objectively nor subjectively, but at least from the objective viewpoint, he ranks up there with the best of his peers and, in many statistical categories, the best of all time at his position as well.

Put another way, if the Vikings could have Russell Wilson at QB, I'd take him in a heartbeat, even over Cousins. He'd be the best QB the Vikings have had behind center since 2009 Brett Favre.

I get it Wilson is far superior than Cousins. Put another way the Super Bowl would be a given if we had him.

[StumpHunter]

Not to belabor it then, but you realize that if you are going to define your argument around something purely subjective like the "eye test", then you really can't be wrong.

Which is fine, but at that point hardly worth debate.

For what it's worth, I think Wilson's objective stats and accomplishments to this point in his career merit his compensation, and apparently the Seahawks agree with that assessment. He's not the GOAT, and mostly likely will never be viewed as the GOAT, neither objectively nor subjectively, but at least from the objective viewpoint, he ranks up there with the best of his peers and, in many statistical categories, the best of all time at his position as well.

Put another way, if the Vikings could have Russell Wilson at QB, I'd take him in a heartbeat, even over Cousins. He'd be the best QB the Vikings have had behind center since 2009 Brett Favre.

I get it Wilson is far superior than Cousins. Put another way the Super Bowl would be a given if we had him.

The 2018 Vikings offense would have been the best offense he had ever played in. Couple that with a top 5 D, and yes, we are probably competing for a SB.

[CharVike]

Now THAT is an elite defense!!!!

We’re not even CLOSE to an elite defense. Not even close

I agree. We aren't close to what we were even. Its one of the reasons I wanted to rebuild the D this year. Its why I didnt want Griff back (he isnt close to the DE he was even a few years ago) and why I didnt want Barr back (he is one of those players that only really looks when he wants to, like the end of last season, for a new contract). I also think Zimmer is a master of the D, and we dont need to waste good picks on what might be good DE's (i am personally more afraid of what we do at DT, we need to draft a great DT and a lot of fans want a flashy DE and we will get burned by that). If we dont move don in the draft, getting players like Ford and Lindstrom could change use into a very good offense. Not the most exciting players to draft first, but I really think they would give Cousins at least a full second more time to read the D before they are in his face. Look at tape last year and Cousins was constantly under pressure. Which he isnt good at avoiding, to put it mildly. And think of Cook with more holes to run through. He is so quick and agile at the point of attack. I could go on and on about the Oline, I have all off season, but I still think its the only way to get to the SB. The game is won in the trenches.

I wouldn't put the master label on a guy with a scheme that don't get many TOs. Buddy Ryan was a master. If Zim was a master the O wouldn't even matter. I also don't think Ford is on our board. He doesn't fit this wuss scheme. I think they will look for smaller OL guys that have great feet. Ford is the complete opposite. They will get their type of OL player later. I also don't see Cousins as a stick in the mud player. He has plenty of movement ability for the position. He's no Mike Vike, thank god, but he can move better than a Dam Marino could. Bottom line we could pick any position and justify it. For example if Metcalf falls that needs to be the pick. Or if Lock is there then he needs to be the pick. Even though Lock has a 2nd round grade he will be picked earlier. Probably by the Giants.

[fiestavike]

I agree. We aren't close to what we were even. Its one of the reasons I wanted to rebuild the D this year. Its why I didnt want Griff back (he isnt close to the DE he was even a few years ago) and why I didnt want Barr back (he is one of those players that only really looks when he wants to, like the end of last season, for a new contract). I also think Zimmer is a master of the D, and we dont need to waste good picks on what might be good DE's (i am personally more afraid of what we do at DT, we need to draft a great DT and a lot of fans want a flashy DE and we will get burned by that). If we dont move don in the draft, getting players like Ford and Lindstrom could change use into a very good offense. Not the most exciting players to draft first, but I really think they would give Cousins at least a full second more time to read the D before they are in his face. Look at tape last year and Cousins was constantly under pressure. Which he isnt good at avoiding, to put it mildly. And think of Cook with more holes to run through. He is so quick and agile at the point of attack. I could go on and on about the Oline, I have all off season, but I still think its the only way to get to the SB. The game is won in the trenches.

I wouldn't put the master label on a guy with a scheme that don't get many TOs. Buddy Ryan was a master. If Zim was a master the O wouldn't even matter. I also don't think Ford is on our board. He doesn't fit this wuss scheme. I think they will look for smaller OL guys that have great feet. Ford is the complete opposite. They will get their type of OL player later. I also don't see Cousins as a stick in the mud player. He has plenty of movement ability for the position. He's no Mike Vike, thank god, but he can move better than a Dam Marino could. Bottom line we could pick any position and justify it. For example if Metcalf falls that needs to be the pick. Or if Lock is there then he needs to be the pick. Even though Lock has a 2nd round grade he will be picked earlier. Probably by the Giants.

Its not the ability to move that is the issue for Cousins, its the ability to move within the pocket.

Re: defense, the Vikings don't play a downhill defense. Its a read and react defense. That's not as sexy as playing downhill, but it can be effective.

[StumpHunter]

I wouldn't put the master label on a guy with a scheme that don't get many TOs. Buddy Ryan was a master. If Zim was a master the O wouldn't even matter. I also don't think Ford is on our board. He doesn't fit this wuss scheme. I think they will look for smaller OL guys that have great feet. Ford is the complete opposite. They will get their type of OL player later. I also don't see Cousins as a stick in the mud player. He has plenty of movement ability for the position. He's no Mike Vike, thank god, but he can move better than a Dam Marino could. Bottom line we could pick any position and justify it. For example if Metcalf falls that needs to be the pick. Or if Lock is there then he needs to be the pick. Even though Lock has a 2nd round grade he will be picked earlier. Probably by the Giants.

Its not the ability to move that is the issue for Cousins, its the ability to move within the pocket.

Re: defense, the Vikings don't play a downhill defense. Its a read and react defense. That's not as sexy as playing downhill, but it can be effective.

A lot of times you need HOF talent at multiple positions to get a bunch of turnovers AND hold the other team to fewer points. Zimmer's scheme requires good players at most positions, but it doesn't require he find HOF talent in the draft, something that requires more luck than skill to find. It is more sustainable and will keep the Vikings competitive most seasons.

This is the right way to sustain success, and is actually the Patriot model, which should be what teams try to emulate. Try to build a team like those that win the most SBs, don't try to build one like the Ravens, Broncos, Bears or Buccaneers, that caught lighting in a bottle on defense, and won one year, falling apart soon after.

[Dakotavike]

Posted in the Sirius thread Risner would be my top OL pick with Dillard second (assuming the consensus top guys are gone). I have a feeling Risner will be gone but the odds Dillard is around seem decent. Absent something odd like an Oliver falling, I think one of those is the pick. If both are gone, I could see Hockenson if he's around.

I'm hoping the Vikings aren't enticed by Sweat, who I think will be available but not worth the 18th pick. We don't need a passs rusher and his health concerns me.

I may not be looking at the right mocks but I don't think I've seen one yet where Risner wasn't available at our pick. In fact, most of the ones I remember seeing he wasn't taken in the entire 1st round. Not saying it's a good or bad pick but it seems like there's a pretty good shot at him being available. In fact, if he's as good as a lot of you seem to think he is it makes me wonder if we could trade back a few spots and still land him.

[CharVike]

I get it Wilson is far superior than Cousins. Put another way the Super Bowl would be a given if we had him.

The 2018 Vikings offense would have been the best offense he had ever played in. Couple that with a top 5 D, and yes, we are probably competing for a SB.

Let's see. M Lynch 2013 1200 yards rushing. Vikings 2018 as a team 1493. They had one guy almost beat our entire team. But our O was so much better. I don't even know what top 5 D means. Don't use top anything with a D that can't get TOs. IMO our D was middle pack not top of something. Look at the entire picture.

[Pondering Her Percy]

That’s what I’m saying, there aren’t really stats to prove it. The stats are flawed given what I’m trying to argue. That’s why I said before it’s more agree to disagree. Some will think Wilson is “elite”, some will think he’s great, some will think he’s overrated in certain ways. There just isn’t a stat out there for what I’m really arguing. Which is why I say it’s more of the eye test than anything. I mean I respect guys opinions of them thinking he’s a legit passer. I just think he’s overrated as a passer and his legs bail him out more than anything which in turn, results inflated numbers. He struggles to stay in the pocket and deliver. It is what it is. Just my two cents

Here is pro-tip: If there isn't a stat out there that can defend your argument, and in fact every stat says the opposite of what you are trying to argue, you probably are on the wrong side of said argument.

Inflated numbers because his line sucks and he has to scramble to buy time?

Lol thanks for the “pro-tip”. My point is, he’s constantly out of the pocket throwing the ball. Partially because his OL sucks and partially because he’s not a QB that can consistently sit in the pocket and deliver. Have you ever heard anyone call Russell Wilson a pocket passer? No. And they never will. When he’s out of the pocket scrambling, most routes have been ran or close to it. He often operates off of broken plays. That’s not a true passer. That’s not reading defenses constantly. That’s not consistently hitting guys when they’re breaking out of their routes. It’s not just “his line sucks and he has to scramble”. Stop trying to twist my words. I have explained myself more than once. This is just my opinion. You aren’t changing it. That’s how I feel about Wilson and like I said I’m not the only one. It is what it is

[StumpHunter]

The 2018 Vikings offense would have been the best offense he had ever played in. Couple that with a top 5 D, and yes, we are probably competing for a SB.

Let's see. M Lynch 2013 1200 yards rushing. Vikings 2018 as a team 1493. They had one guy almost beat our entire team. But our O was so much better. I don't even know what top 5 D means. Don't use top anything with a D that can't get TOs. IMO our D was middle pack not top of something. Look at the entire picture.

They only gave up the 3rd fewest points per drive of any team in the NFL, 4th fewest yards. 4th most 3 and outs forced, 2nd fewest TDs given up and they were 2nd in the red zone.

But yeah, in a season where the offense struggled to score and rarely put any pressure on the opposition to take chances offensively, they didn't get a lot of turnovers, so average I guess.

"Big picture."

[StumpHunter]

Here is pro-tip: If there isn't a stat out there that can defend your argument, and in fact every stat says the opposite of what you are trying to argue, you probably are on the wrong side of said argument.

Inflated numbers because his line sucks and he has to scramble to buy time?

Lol thanks for the “pro-tip”. My point is, he’s constantly out of the pocket throwing the ball. Partially because his OL sucks and partially because he’s not a QB that can consistently sit in the pocket and deliver. Have you ever heard anyone call Russell Wilson a pocket passer? No. And they never will. When he’s out of the pocket scrambling, most routes have been ran or close to it. He often operates off of broken plays. That’s not a true passer. That’s not reading defenses constantly. That’s not consistently hitting guys when they’re breaking out of their routes. It’s not just “his line sucks and he has to scramble”. Stop trying to twist my words. I have explained myself more than once. This is just my opinion. You aren’t changing it. That’s how I feel about Wilson and like I said I’m not the only one. It is what it is

The same could be said about Rogers, who is elite because of his scrambling. That doesn't make him a bad passer, just a different type of passer and based on the numbers, that type of passer is far more effective than a pure pocket passer on a year end and year out basis.

I am also quite aware that there is no changing your mind. You seem to be very set in your ways and dig in your heels when faced with insurmountable evidence that you are wrong. Even when I quoted you above, you argued you didn't say something you said.

[808vikingsfan]

Most people think Wilson won the Super Bowl. I had to refresh my memory but they also had a decent defense. Found this below.

The Legion of Boom and the rest of the 2013 Seahawks defense led the league in points, yards and turnovers. And, of course, this defense completely shut down Peyton Manning — who was having the best season of his career — and Denver’s record-setting offense in Super Bowl XLVIII.

That's playing some defense. They were top 5 all time easily and that D won it for them. Not the 2000 Ravens D but very close. Plus they got turnovers which is something we currently don't do very well. Win the TO battle and typically win the game. IMO Wilson wouldn't guide our current team to the Super Bowl because he's not good enough to overcome our weaknesses. If Zim starts preaching TOs it would help us out tremendously. But his scheme seems to be short with getting TOs.

Been trying to avoid responding to this subject since it's derailing PHP's topic but I have to chime in.

Isn't the OL the Vikings weakness? Seems to me a highly skilled and experienced mobile QB that knows how to feel pressure and extend plays would be exactly what this team needs right now. In 2013, Seattle's OL ranked 27th while their offense was #7 in scoring. Wilson was sacked more times in 2013 than Cousin was in 2018. Let's not forget Wilson rushed for over 500 yards that year as well. . Imagine how much fun it would be to watch Wilson extend plays while Diggs and Thielen lose their defender. Extend plays, better decision making, relieve pressure off the OL and the defense. IMO, Wilson would instantly make this Vikings team a legitimate SB contender.

As far as defensive turnovers, why would a defense risk big plays if they're so effective on 3rd downs? IMO, forcing a punt is just a good as a turnover (in fact, it is a 'turnover on downs'). Zimmers D has been in the top 10 in scoring and 3rd downs since 2015. The defense is fine. If you look back at the last 5 seasons, it's the team with the top 5 scoring offense that has made it to the SB.