Vikings OL and GM discussion

[mondry]

That's pretty fair. I'd have them ranked a bit worse, but that probably accounts for a bit of our different perspectives on the issue.

I'd give them a 4 still but with flashes of 5 and 2, I don't think the ceiling was as high as a 6 unless we're talking about including teams like Atlanta who only had 19 sacks all year, they didn't pressure anyone well.

It's the consistency that leaves me wanting for more though. Even in Poet's estimate a floor of 3 and a ceiling of 6 is too big of a gap. In the short term I want a line that play's at a 6, ceiling of 7, floor of 5. I guess that's why I'm okay with moving on from kalil and loadholt if at all possible, they've always kind of been guys who play at a 4 or 5, ceiling of 5 or 6, but on any given pass play can give you a 2.

That's why I talk about the Tackles so much and why I think we have to do more than just get a LG.

As for Clemmings, he was a raw dude that only played O-line for like 2 years (switched in college from DT I believe) and he got a bunch of on the job training last year. I don't see him going anywhere, in fact I think he's the future at RT.

[dead_poet]

Suppose they keep Kalil, Fusco, Berger, Sullivan, Harris, and Loadholt. Suppose they add 1 guy in FA and 1 guy in the draft. They're probably up to 8 guys on that unit already. Are we sure Clemmings beats out Sirles, Easton, Bykowski, etc?

Why are people so confident in guys like Sirles, Easton and Bykowski? Is it the "backup QB" phenomenon where people are enamored with the backup because they haven't seen them play and enjoy hoping for the best in the unknown? Sullivan was awful at center his first year in the NFL. Fusco was awful at guard his first year in the NFL. They each improved (greatly). I'd even go so far in saying that Phil improved a great deal since his rookie year. In fact, they improved so much that all three of them received contract extensions from the Vikings.

Granted I know very little about those undrafted/7th-round guys but there's a reason they either went undrafted or lasted until the last round of the draft. For that reason I don't think it's hard to fathom that Clemmings could have a higher upside. We all know that there are UDFA "success stories" but the hit rate of those guys are few and far between and your luck at finding one of them is lower than "hitting" on a fourth-rounder.

Does he have practice squad eligibility left since he started all last season. I'm pretty sure that's the only way DeGeare and Yankey got 2-3 years "on the team".

I'm not 100% sure, but I think he has practice squad eligibility left (I think there are two spots available on the PS for guys that have less than two accrued seasons). I find it more likely guys like Sirles, Easton and Bykowski would be on the practice squad over Clemmings. But you never know. Sounds like it'll be an open competition nearly all around on the offensive line.

[fiestavike]

Why are people so confident in guys like Sirles, Easton and Bykowski? Is it the "backup QB" phenomenon where people are enamored with the backup because they haven't seen them play and enjoy hoping for the best in the unknown? Sullivan was awful at center his first year in the NFL. Fusco was awful at guard his first year in the NFL. They each improved (greatly). I'd even go so far in saying that Phil improved a great deal since his rookie year. In fact, they improved so much that all three of them received contract extensions from the Vikings.

Granted I know very little about those undrafted/7th-round guys but there's a reason they either went undrafted or lasted until the last round of the draft. For that reason I don't think it's hard to fathom that Clemmings could have a higher upside. We all know that there are UDFA "success stories" but the hit rate of those guys are few and far between and your luck at finding one of them is lower than "hitting" on a fourth-rounder.

My point was that, before you get to those guys, you already have 8 on the roster in the scenario I outlined (which is pretty similar to the scenario you have suggested). That might well be it. If they keep 9, it doesn't seem impossible to me that a Bykowski or a Sirles, or some new 4th/5th round pick could outplay a Clemmings. Who knows. At this point last year I think Clemmings was being talked up as a 1st rounder. Maybe Conklin (for example) winds up a viking via a 4th round pick.

I don't find the possibility that he doesn't make the team so hard to imagine is all. Especially if Sparano looked at the tape and said, "this guy is terrible". That's really all I meant to respond to in particular.

[fiestavike]

I've been gradually reworking my way through last seasons games, and it really is amazing how rarely you see a vikings OL more than 2 yards down field on a running play. Draw plays and double teams are about they only way it was ever achieved. It was really an embarrassing lack of push across the board.

[jackal]

Fiestavike thats the thing I didn't understand when I saw shepard play he had really good push and was knocking
back players quite often, but never saw the field much?

[mansquatch]

I still think Guard has the most upside.

Poet: I think part of it is the Back UP QB thing (Anything has to be better than this!) and also I think people are projecting what they saw in 2015 onto all the players, even though two of the best starters didn't play a snap all season.

The last part is why I think the view of cutting loadholt is a bit silly. I was asking mid-season just how much better we'd be if just those two guys were healthy. I still think having them healthy is arguably equal to a free agent signing IF you consider 2015 the baseline. As i said before, how much does the line change if you replace Loadholt for Clemmings. IMO, the answer is A LOT.

IF you accept the premise the Loadholt over Clemmings is a big boost then it changes how you fix the line. IMO, the bang for the buck is at guard, particularly LG.

[dead_poet]

Poet: I think part of it is the Back UP QB thing (Anything has to be better than this!) and also I think people are projecting what they saw in 2015 onto all the players, even though two of the best starters didn't play a snap all season.

I think that's accurate.

The last part is why I think the view of cutting loadholt is a bit silly. I was asking mid-season just how much better we'd be if just those two guys were healthy. I still think having them healthy is arguably equal to a free agent signing IF you consider 2015 the baseline. As i said before, how much does the line change if you replace Loadholt for Clemmings. IMO, the answer is A LOT.

Agree.

IF you accept the premise the Loadholt over Clemmings is a big boost then it changes how you fix the line. IMO, the bang for the buck is at guard, particularly LG.

That's where I see things as well. Of course, there's a "best case" scenario (Kalil stays the same as 2015 or gets better, Sullivan and Loadholt return at 100%) and the "worst case" (Kalil reverts to 2013-2014, Sullivan/Loadholt aren't ready/play decreases due to injuries). Or somewhere in the middle/combination. And that's even before draft/FA acquisitions. We have no way of knowing until we can see them and it's really a matter of your level of optimism or pessimism regarding those three guys at this point. Whether or not the coaching staff moves on/replaces them or not will be telling. What I don't want is to replace them and have the replacements be worse, which can easily happen if we're talking about replacing them with rookies and/or young/inexperienced guys like Sirles, Easton and Bukowski.

[mansquatch]

Another angle on this is the fact that we are legitimately on the cusp of Superbowl window. This is a team where you could add a few key pieces and make a run for the Lombardi Trophy. I think that will also be a factor in how the they address the OL, meaning they much less likely to just "blow it up".

[dead_poet]

Another angle on this is the fact that we are legitimately on the cusp of Superbowl window. This is a team where you could add a few key pieces and make a run for the Lombardi Trophy. I think that will also be a factor in how the they address the OL, meaning they much less likely to just "blow it up".

Agreed. I posed this question before and I don't think anybody responded: how often does a team replace more than 2 starters on the offensive line in any given year? It just doesn't happen and it's not like we have NO options. We could be getting two starters back that are in the top-10 in their respective positions (which will open up added flexibility on the line provided they are healthy).

[mondry]

Agreed. I posed this question before and I don't think anybody responded: how often does a team replace more than 2 starters on the offensive line in any given year? It just doesn't happen and it's not like we have NO options. We could be getting two starters back that are in the top-10 in their respective positions (which will open up added flexibility on the line provided they are healthy).

The reason no one answered is because it doesn't really matter what other teams do. What matters is does our team need to replace 2 or more starters? Yes. Do we have the contract flexibility and resources in the draft / FA to do it? Yes. It should be highly considered.

[Jordysghost]

Another angle on this is the fact that we are legitimately on the cusp of Superbowl window. This is a team where you could add a few key pieces and make a run for the Lombardi Trophy. I think that will also be a factor in how the they address the OL, meaning they much less likely to just "blow it up".

I think it is waaaaaaayy to early for that kind of brash determination and thinking. Way. Way to early.

[mansquatch]

I understand you do not drink the purple kool aid, but the reality is this team was a missed field goal away form the divisional round and we played the team you lost to in that round to a field goal on the road just 4 weeks prior. We also played Denver to within 3 points early in the season. Obviously we did not win and that is all that matters, but if the above is not "close" then what exactly is?

[mike2mike]

The most aggressive rehaul of our OL that I can possibly think of is.
1)cut Loadholdt,Sullivan,Kalil,Wallace; resign Mike Harris and some defensive players too.
2)Sign K Osemele
3)trade Rhodes to a top 10 team for a 1st and 2nd rounder... Maybe Ravens at 6?
4)Sign Sean Smith to replace Rhodes for at least a couple years. (Contingency plans include Josh Norman, Prince Amukamara, resign Newman and hope he can play right CB, and other free agents)
5)draft Ron Stanely at 6-10(Speilman 1 spot swap?) if Tunsil is not there.
6)trade 2nd and our 3rd to move up and get a 3rd 1st rounder.
7)Draft Cody Whitaker and an OT like Taylor Decker
8 )Grab Nick Martin at Center

OL looks like this:
LT Stanley |Clemmings
LG Whitaker | Fusco |(Berger)
C Berger | Nick Martin
RG Osemele | Harris (Berger/Fusco)
RT Decker | Shepard/Harris/(Clemmings)

Frontload Resignings+extensions
We probably would have to fail to address WR,LBer and Safety this year with this plan, but could get some really talented players next year at those spots.

Also very importantly, this move makes room to probably keep all of our talented players (minus Rhodes) into 2nd year contracts due to Rhodes trade freeing up probably 12M a year from 2019-2022 (from 2016-2018 it will go to Sean Smith), the cuts letting us frontload Harrison Smith (and extend Munnerlyn and Charlie Johnson while adding to the 2016 cap number via roster bonus to save cap space beyond), and making room to frontload Sharrif Floyd next year and Barr,McKinnon,Bridgewater,Waynes,Kendricks,Diggs,Clemmigs,etc....

[fiestavike]

The most aggressive rehaul of our OL that I can possibly think of is.
1)cut Loadholdt,Sullivan,Kalil,Wallace; resign Mike Harris and some defensive players too.
2)Sign K Osemele
3)trade Rhodes to a top 10 team for a 1st and 2nd rounder... Maybe Ravens at 6?
4)Sign Sean Smith to replace Rhodes for at least a couple years. (Contingency plans include Josh Norman, Prince Amukamara, resign Newman and hope he can play right CB, and other free agents)
5)draft Ron Stanely at 6-10(Speilman 1 spot swap?) if Tunsil is not there.
6)trade Ravens 2nd and our 3rd to move up and get a 3rd 1st rounder.
7)Draft Cody Whitaker and an OT like Taylor Decker
8)Grab Nick Martin at Center

OL looks like this:
LT Stanley |Clemmings
LG Whitaker | Fusco |(Berger)
C Berger | Nick Martin
RG Osemele | Harris (Berger/Fusco)
RT Decker | Shepard/Harris/(Clemmings)

Frontload Resignings+extensions
We probably would have to fail to address WR,LBer and Safety this year with this plan, but could get some really talented players next year at those spots.

Also very importantly, this move makes room to probably keep all of our talented players (minus Rhodes) into 2nd year contracts due to Rhodes trade freeing up probably 12M a year from 2019-2022 (from 2016-2018 it will go to Sean Smith), the cuts letting us frontload Harrison Smith (and extend Munnerlyn and Charlie Johnson while adding to the 2016 cap number via roster bonus to save cap space beyond), and making room to frontload Sharrif Floyd next year and Barr,McKinnon,Bridgewater,Waynes,Kendricks,Diggs,Clemmigs,etc....

Are you saying Rhodes as opposed to another player because of his trade value, or do you have some other reason? I wouldn't be inclined to part with Xavier Rhodes.

[Jordysghost]

I understand you do not drink the purple kool aid, but the reality is this team was a missed field goal away form the divisional round and we played the team you lost to in that round to a field goal on the road just 4 weeks prior. We also played Denver to within 3 points early in the season. Obviously we did not win and that is all that matters, but if the above is not "close" then what exactly is?

Yea, and all of those things point to the Vikings being a good, talented team, but you are in the beginning of this teams life cycle, now it definitly not the time for this overly aggressive 'win now' approach, very rarely does that kind of thing work and even when it does it leaves serious cap repercussions down the road.

II think you are getting to antsy and impatient, don't mortgage the future of a young team for instant gratification, your QB is only in his third year! You want to achieve your maximum potential right?

I personally think the Vikings can take that next step naturally and without any over the top win now nonsense.