Mothman wrote:It doesn't seem like one of his strengths to me. It looks like something he clearly needs to work on.
For me this is "eye of the beholder" country. How can we, as fans, properly evaluate this? I need context and examples otherwise it's just another assumption. The only reason why I say Teddy is good at it is due to articles written about him in college and college QBs as well as Vikings coaches that say he's good at the line. I've also witnessed him make adjustments that lead to positive plays.
It's a correct assumption
Again, I need more than that before I can say it with any certainty. Preferably more than just one example. I need to see that this is a chronic issue more than it's a product of the protection breakdown and/or receivers unable to create separation.
All of this is just a little too familiar to me. I'm seeing more and more of the same problems Ponder had in Bridgewater's game. Thankfully, he takes better care of the ball but I still don't like where this seems to be heading.
I'm willing to give Teddy as much slack as I did Ponder, which was more than most. Especially with this line right now I'm cutting the kid a break because I'm not sure who could have much success behind it, especially a guy entering his second season worth of starts. I think it's not only hurting his effectiveness but also his development.
“Some people think football is a matter of life and death. I assure you, it's much more serious than that.” --- Bill Shankly
Purple Reign wrote:
Not disputing that at all - I was just commenting on Jordy's belief that NE hasn't recently had a sub par OL. Brady has the experience to overcome a bad OL so it may seem like they are good in that area.
Fanhood aside, I'd put Rodgers release right up there, probably slightly ahead of Brady's, but it still wasn't enough to make his atrocious O lines rank in the top 15 for any of his first 5 and a half years as a starter.
Brady's O lines have been fantastic nearly his entire tenure in NE, I think your giving Brady to much props for one of the most consistent Offensive linemen units in the league. Again, have they ever ranked outside of the top 15?
"Follow my lead today, whos goona be the big dog with me?" - Aaron Rodgers, February 6th, 2011
Jordysghost wrote:
Yea, but have they ever ranked out of the top 15 in almost any of his years as the starter? Alot of guys get the ball out quick, Brady is no exception but I still don't think he has had the dubious honor of having to compete with sub par O lines for much of his career.
So exactly how do you rank an offensive line? I'm sure number of sacks given up is a big part of the equation, and Brady helps that out a lot by not taking sacks. Like I said, last night was a good example where he only got sacked once but had to throw it away numerous times. The line wasn't holding up at all but giving up only 1 sack, statistically they looked good. I agree that they really haven't had a terrible OL, but I don't remember anyone talking about how great they've been.
dead_poet wrote:
For me this is "eye of the beholder" country. How can we, as fans, properly evaluate this? I need context and examples otherwise it's just another assumption. The only reason why I say Teddy is good at it is due to articles written about him in college and college QBs as well as Vikings coaches that say he's good at the line. I've also witnessed him make adjustments that lead to positive plays.
Again, I need more than that before I can say it with any certainty. Preferably more than just one example. I need to see that this is a chronic issue more than it's a product of the protection breakdown and/or receivers unable to create separation.
I absolutely understand and I'd provide those examples if I had the time to put together enough plays to make a convincing case. Unfortunately, I don't at the moment. everybody would probably just view them differently anyway.
All i can say is I'm watching the film and I'm seeing it. I'll leave it to others to go more in-depth.
I'm willing to give Teddy as much slack as I did Ponder, which was more than most. Especially with this line right now I'm cutting the kid a break because I'm not sure who could have much success behind it, especially a guy entering his second season worth of starts. I think it's not only hurting his effectiveness but also his development.
On that, we agree which, again, is why I feel it's all just a little too familiar.
dead_poet wrote:
We definitely do. Outside of week 1 and this past Sunday the Vikings' rush defense has been mostly hurt by one 72-yard TD (Hillman) and six WR rushes (Austin).
The reason some teams haven't had the determination to stick with the rush is because the Vikings have been doing a good job of shut it down. Aside from Hillman's ONE 72-yard TD, they allowed 10/31 (3.1 YPC) and 11/43 (3.9) for 74 yards in that game.
As you pointed out, they held Gurley to 89 rushing yards on 24 carries (3.7 YPC). Prior to that Gurley was averaging 6.6 YPC and 142 yards/game. That's significant.
I'm not saying they're quite to the level of the Williams Wall days yet, but they've shown they can shut down a running game and be dominant. They don't allow many rushing TDs, either (5 total, which is T-7 fewest in the league). Sunday was the most frustrated I've been with the unit since week 1.
Fair enough. I think it remains a vulnerable point that teams can exploit and I suspect we'll see more of that before the season is over. I don't think they're going to get gashed for huge yardage on play after play but I expect we'll see more 100+ yard rushing performances against the defense this year. I wish I felt otherwise because believe me, I'm not trying to be negative or cynical for the sake of it.
Jordysghost wrote:
Fanhood aside, I'd put Rodgers release right up there, probably slightly ahead of Brady's, but it still wasn't enough to make his atrocious O lines rank in the top 15 for any of his first 5 and a half years as a starter.
Brady's O lines have been fantastic nearly his entire tenure in NE, I think your giving Brady to much props for one of the most consistent Offensive linemen units in the league. Again, have they ever ranked outside of the top 15?
Rodgers has a quick release too when he decides to throw the ball. The difference between Rodgers and Brady is that Rodgers will hold the ball a lot longer trying to make a play if no one is open, where Brady will typically throw the ball away if no one is open (prime example again last night's game). So Rodgers is going to take a lot more sacks than Brady will.
Purple Reign wrote:
So exactly how do you rank an offensive line? I'm sure number of sacks given up is a big part of the equation, and Brady helps that out a lot by not taking sacks. Like I said, last night was a good example where he only got sacked once but had to throw it away numerous times. The line wasn't holding up at all but giving up only 1 sack, statistically they looked good. I agree that they really haven't had a terrible OL, but I don't remember anyone talking about how great they've been.
I tend to rank an Offensive line on the whole shebang, sacks, pressures etc. And the Patriots O line doesn't give up many of either, which explains why they are consistently a top unit in the league.
Brady has a damn fine release, I agree a hundred percent, but if you put Brady on the Vikings do you think the O line would be a top unit in the NFL? I don't, there is only so much a quick release can make up for.
"Follow my lead today, whos goona be the big dog with me?" - Aaron Rodgers, February 6th, 2011
Purple Reign wrote:
Rodgers has a quick release too when he decides to throw the ball. The difference between Rodgers and Brady is that Rodgers will hold the ball a lot longer trying to make a play if no one is open, where Brady will typically throw the ball away if no one is open (prime example again last night's game). So Rodgers is going to take a lot more sacks than Brady will.
While that typically rings true these days, that wasn't really how it was until 2011 when Rodgers started feeling his oats as a playmaker.
But Marino is another fine example, I think he had maybe the quickest release in NFL history, but his O line rankings couldn't hold a candle to these Patriots O line rankings.
Last edited by Jordysghost on Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Follow my lead today, whos goona be the big dog with me?" - Aaron Rodgers, February 6th, 2011
I have to be honest I lost a lot of faith in the Vikings this week.
We lost a critical game at home by almost twenty points. Good teams
might lose games but they don't just have horrible games in those
especially making fundamental mistakes. Fumbling the ball etc.
@losperros
Obviously i'm no OC, but I keep seeing the same thing with this team on offense in either an inability or unwillingness to construct and run routes that force LBs into coverage over the middle. It seems to me with the speed we have at wideout and given the injuries and outright talent deficiencies along the long, that a whole slew of different depth quick hitting slant passes would be most effective in multiple ways.
Jerry Rice made a living turning a 8yd slant into 50+ gains. The Packers and Patriots destroy defenses with those kinds of routes.
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I also agree that AD would be much more effective in the pass game if they would hit him in stride as opposed to dump offs.
From what I see, the routes being run and how long they take to develop coupled with leaguewide familarity of Norv's scheme and inadequate/inconsistent pass protection all hinder the rhythmn and flow of the offense as well as hinder TBs health and development.
Maybe I'm naive...but that's what I see.
this season he has 28 catches for 328 yds and 1 td through 10 games. i'm sorry, but i don't buy into the fact that he is washed up. being from pittsburgh, he has always had issues with drops, so that is nothing new. the point is if you keep going back to him he will eventually get the job done (he has his whole career). we have a qb issue i think it should be obvious; to what degree yet is still to be determined.
dead_poet wrote:Teddy was pressured on 62% of his passes on Sunday. That's unacceptable and, frankly, the offensive line should be embarrassed. The Packers won the game in the trenches on both sides of the ball (so few running lanes) and the Vikings ultimately shot themselves in the foot multiple times. You're not going to beat the Packers like that and they didn't. It was a poor team "effort."
With Kalil now playing injured (again), the line just got even worse for the rest of the season. I'm about done with trying to fairly analyze Teddy right now and am more concerned with him not making it through the rest of the year. He's the most pressured QB in the league behind a line filled with replacements, injured and flat sub-par linemen. It's disgusting to watch this line and this offense as a result.
That about sums it up for me as well, couldn't agree more, especially with the underlined. If anything Teddy might actually be over performing what should be possible behind a line this bad.
jackal wrote:I have to be honest I lost a lot of faith in the Vikings this week.
We lost a critical game at home by almost twenty points. Good teams
might lose games but they don't just have horrible games in those
especially making fundamental mistakes. Fumbling the ball etc.
I feel exactly the same way and the only solace I can find is in the fact that they have exceeded my early expectations for this year. I had expected and still do think that next year might be that year in their new stadium.
So once again I get the scab torn off and it leaves a very fresh, bleeding wound that you would think would diminish over the many years of following this underachieving team. But not so.
We can all see what this team is made of by how they bounce back after suffering another humiliating loss similar to the 49ers embarrassment. I can only hope and "suffer" through the rest of the season.
Do not mistake KINDNESS for WEAKNESS!
Best to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool rather than open it and remove all doubt.
Jordysghost wrote:
Fanhood aside, I'd put Rodgers release right up there, probably slightly ahead of Brady's, but it still wasn't enough to make his atrocious O lines rank in the top 15 for any of his first 5 and a half years as a starter.
Brady's O lines have been fantastic nearly his entire tenure in NE, I think your giving Brady to much props for one of the most consistent Offensive linemen units in the league. Again, have they ever ranked outside of the top 15?
Dude, New England is starting a tight end at right tackle because of all the injuries, and they're still undefeated. I don't care what PFF or whoever says. That's not a good unit. Brady's decision making, as well as his release, covers up the line's deficiencies. Rodgers never had it that bad.
You really need to back off the woe-is-Erin kick. As long as the refs keep protecting him like he wears a freaking skirt, you'll get little sympathy around here. That call against Linval Joseph the other day was so lame that Rodgers himself laughed at it.
I'm seeing more and more of the same problems Ponder had in Bridgewater's game. Thankfully, he takes better care of the ball but I still don't like where this seems to be heading.
