T.J. Clemmings steps into big shoes on Vikings offensive lin

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Re: T.J. Clemmings steps into big shoes on Vikings offensive

Post by DK Sweets »

jackal wrote: My reasoning our OL has been terrible, for years...

IMO one of the worst in the NFL in last few years.

Loadholt was gone most of last year, and going to miss this whole year. Not his fault but no matter how good you are or not
if your not healthy, your no good to team.

I wouldn't keep Kalil either moving forward. I was thrilled we finally got rid of Johnson LG. He was terrible missing blocks
stumbling around.
That doesn't make any sense to me. The argument isn't whether or not Loadholt is worth his contract, the argument is whether or not Clemmings is better than Loadholt. He's not.

I don't know exactly what word to use, but your thoughts on our O-line seem awkward to me. You think Clemmings is better than Loadholt based on a few preseason snaps, but Kalil has looked great in the preseason and you're ready to give up on the former Pro Bowler without even seeing if he has truly bounced back? I just don't understand.
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Re: T.J. Clemmings steps into big shoes on Vikings offensive

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I don't know exactly what word to use, but your thoughts on our O-line seem awkward to me. You think Clemmings is better than Loadholt based on a few preseason snaps, but Kalil has looked great in the preseason and you're ready to give up on the former Pro Bowler without even seeing if he has truly bounced back? I just don't understand.
From what I have seen the Vikings OL does look better in pass protection than last season. Is it because of clemmings alone, maybe not.
I wouldn't have signed Loadholt past his rookie contract. The only year he impressed me, was his the year he was trying to get a new contract.
Kalil last year in his current contract is due 16 million dollars. For a guy who has struggled so badly; that is insane. I know LT make good money,
but my goodness.. that is QB money. I would probably try and replace both tackles ASAP, but try and not take huge cap hit. Loadholt salary
is quaranteed this season, I'm quessing.
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Re: T.J. Clemmings steps into big shoes on Vikings offensive

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jackal wrote: From what I have seen the Vikings OL does look better in pass protection than last season. Is it because of clemmings alone, maybe not.
I wouldn't have signed Loadholt past his rookie contract. The only year he impressed me, was his the year he was trying to get a new contract.
Kalil last year in his current contract is due 16 million dollars. For a guy who has struggled so badly; that is insane. I know LT make good money,
but my goodness.. that is QB money.
He's getting $6,290,644 this year, Ken, not $16 million:

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/minnesota-vi ... att-kalil/

Maybe you mis-heard six for sixteen? I've done that before.

If they keep him next year without negotiating a new contract, he's due to make $11,096,000.
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Re: T.J. Clemmings steps into big shoes on Vikings offensive

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He's getting $6,290,644 this year, Ken, not $16 million:

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/minnesota-vi ... att-kalil/

Maybe you mis-heard six for sixteen? I've done that before.

If they keep him next year without negotiating a new contract, he's due to make $11,096,000.
Yeah I didn't mean this season, I meant his last contract year. I thought it was 16 million.
Even at 11 million is a ton for a guy that has had two very questionable years.
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Re: T.J. Clemmings steps into big shoes on Vikings offensive

Post by Mothman »

jackal wrote: Yeah I didn't mean this season, I meant his last contract year. I thought it was 16 million.
Even at 11 million is a ton for a guy that has had two very questionable years.
It is but it's an option year so if it doesn't look like he'll be worth that money after this season, the Vikings can release him or perhaps negotiate a new deal.
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T.J. Clemmings steps into big shoes on Vikings offensive lin

Post by DK Sweets »

jackal wrote:
From what I have seen the Vikings OL does look better in pass protection than last season. Is it because of clemmings alone, maybe not.
I wouldn't have signed Loadholt past his rookie contract. The only year he impressed me, was his the year he was trying to get a new contract.
Kalil last year in his current contract is due 16 million dollars. For a guy who has struggled so badly; that is insane. I know LT make good money,
but my goodness.. that is QB money. I would probably try and replace both tackles ASAP, but try and not take huge cap hit. Loadholt salary
is quaranteed this season, I'm quessing.
But see, this is what I was just talking about a few posts ago. Loadholt's contract year was 2012, and he's actually been much better since then. When he was younger he was prone to penalties and had issues with pass protection, but he's been fantastic the past two years.

I feel like you aren't giving him the credit he's due, and I feel like you're really setting yourself up for disappointment when Clemmings isn't only not better than Loadholt but when he's very likely worse. The top players in the game aren't easily replaced by late round rookies.

As for Kalil, I would agree that paying him $11m is insane. That's never going to happen; that number is just a placeholder to retain his rights long enough to see if we want to offer him a second contract. My issue with stating that it's time to move on from Kalil (and it's very possible that I read your post wrong) is that you've decided he's not going to be a valuable member of our roster and you don't want him back at any salary, which I feel is really predetermined - especially, as I said earlier, that you seem to be overstating Clemmings based on the preseason but largely ignoring what Kalil has done.
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Re: T.J. Clemmings steps into big shoes on Vikings offensive

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jackal wrote:I wouldn't have signed Loadholt past his rookie contract. The only year he impressed me, was his the year he was trying to get a new contract.
I guess I have a different opinion of Big Phil. Like many, I was expecting a lot when the Vikings drafted him #54 overall. He struggled with penalties early and many remember that but he's only been flagged for six penalties in the last two seasons combined. He's a brute in the run game. He is susceptible to fast/quick pass rushers, particularly if he doesn't get good engagement off the snap, but he's not poor in that department overall and not the consistent liability some folks make him out to be. Is he a top-3 right tackle like he's being paid? Probably not. But I'd be hard-pressed to name 10 right tackles that are consistently better. And all of this ignores the fact that the Bears were going hard at Phil before he re-signed here, which is a good indication of his value from those outside the organization. It was also reported that Phil may have been having one of the best camps out of anyone this year. Not to mention all of the glowing reports from players and coaches from this and the previous regime mentioning how much of a leader and valued member of the organization he is. Everybody on the team really, really respects Phil Loadholt.

You may be interested in an article that also provides some additional data on Phil in relation to other tackles: http://cover32.com/vikings/2014/05/28/m ... olt-elite/

From the article:
In the last two years, he’s only allowed eight sacks, nine hits and 50 hurries. Compared to the average tackle (again, 12 sacks, 13 hits and 54 hurries), that’s very good. It’s beginning to compare to the elites.

Four tackles made various 2013 All-Pro teams: Joe Thomas, Jason Peters, Joe Staley and Tyron Smith. 2012 also saw Duane Brown and Ryan Clady added to that list. In those two years, Trent Williams was named to two Pro Bowls.

Phil Loadholt compares well to those tackles over their last two full seasons. Staley and Williams both gave up more sacks, while Thomas and Brown gave up more hits. The hurries don’t look quite as good as only Smith gave up more, but all told it’s comparable.

All that said, he still doesn’t rank among the top pass protectors in the league—he’s just been clearly better than average for two years now. Of the 42 tackles that have taken 750 snaps in the past two years, he ranks 17th in Pass Blocking Efficiency—a proprietary PFF stat that weights sacks, hits and hurries and takes into account the number of pass blocking snaps a player has taken.

Among right tackles, he ranks sixth of 20.
The entire article provides a pretty good look at Phil and is worth the read. I know it may not change your impression/opinion of him but I think might provide some additional context when evaluating him, especially in comparison to other NFL right tackles.
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Re: T.J. Clemmings steps into big shoes on Vikings offensive

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

jackal wrote: From what I have seen the Vikings OL does look better in pass protection than last season. Is it because of clemmings alone, maybe not.
I wouldn't have signed Loadholt past his rookie contract. The only year he impressed me, was his the year he was trying to get a new contract.
Kalil last year in his current contract is due 16 million dollars. For a guy who has struggled so badly; that is insane. I know LT make good money,
but my goodness.. that is QB money. I would probably try and replace both tackles ASAP, but try and not take huge cap hit. Loadholt salary
is quaranteed this season, I'm quessing.
I mean have you even watched Loadholt the past few seasons outside of last year?? He's been arguably our best lineman and one of the best RTs in the NFL. You also have literally nothing to back the Clemmings claim either. I just don't get where you're going with this.
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Re: T.J. Clemmings steps into big shoes on Vikings offensive

Post by VikingPaul73 »

Phil was a proven and very good RT. Clemmings is a total unknown and could be a complete bust. Obviously the coaches have a much better idea of what they have in Clemmings than we do, but even they haven't seen him in a real game.

Maybe I'm overstating it, but I really think this was a devastating blow; the worst possible loss on offense not named Teddy or Adrian.
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Re: T.J. Clemmings steps into big shoes on Vikings offensive

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

VikingPaul73 wrote:Phil was a proven and very good RT. Clemmings is a total unknown and could be a complete bust. Obviously the coaches have a much better idea of what they have in Clemmings than we do, but even they haven't seen him in a real game.

Maybe I'm overstating it, but I really think this was a devastating blow; the worst possible loss on offense not named Teddy or Adrian.
I agree it's a huge blow but it's also a very good thing that we drafted Clemmings because if we didn't, we would be in a world of hurt right now. Clemmings is athletic enough to hold his own IMO and I think he will do fine but for someone to say he is already better than Loadholt is the most ridiculous thing I've heard
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Re: T.J. Clemmings steps into big shoes on Vikings offensive

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In the last two years, he’s only allowed eight sacks, nine hits and 50 hurries. Compared to the average tackle (again, 12 sacks, 13 hits and 54 hurries), that’s very good. It’s beginning to compare to the elites.
I'm not sure of the time frame for these stats but the guy has not played much last season and won't touch the field this season.
I am not sure of his 2013/2014 season. I remember him wiffing and letting players run around him a lot prior to his contract
based year. That fact alone makes me not wan't him on the team.
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Re: T.J. Clemmings steps into big shoes on Vikings offensive

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jackal wrote: I'm not sure of the time frame for these stats but the guy has not played much last season and won't touch the field this season.
I am not sure of his 2013/2014 season. I remember him wiffing and letting players run around him a lot prior to his contract
based year. That fact alone makes me not wan't him on the team.
I believe the stats are from 2013-2014.

Offensive linemen are always remembered for their mistakes. Eight sacks allowed, 9 hits and 50 hurries is not bad (especially compared to the average). Please also realize that what you believe is poor performance up until his contract year is likely more of the progression of an ascending player. I know there are some guys that are very motivated by money and their contract year can reflect that but Phil does not come across as one of those players. To me it's much more believable he became more consistent through coaching, weight/agility training and technique.

Also know that there are 31 other starting right tackles that are going to allow sacks, too.
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Re: T.J. Clemmings steps into big shoes on Vikings offensive

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dead_poet wrote:I believe the stats are from 2013-2014.

Offensive linemen are always remembered for their mistakes. Eight sacks allowed, 9 hits and 50 hurries is not bad (especially compared to the average). Please also realize that what you believe is poor performance up until his contract year is likely more of the progression of an ascending player. I know there are some guys that are very motivated by money and their contract year can reflect that but Phil does not come across as one of those players. To me it's much more believable he became more consistent through coaching, weight/agility training and technique.

Also know that there are 31 other starting right tackles that are going to allow sacks, too.
That's the part that's hard to remember sometimes. When Phil Loadholt lets a speed rushers get past him he tends to really, egregiously let that rusher past him so those negative plays can linger in the memory but as much as they aggravate me, I have to admit that overall, they're a pretty small percentage of the overall number of plays for which he's on the field.

His coaches and teammates seem to have a great deal of love and respect for the man that speaks volumes.
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Re: T.J. Clemmings steps into big shoes on Vikings offensive

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

jackal wrote: I'm not sure of the time frame for these stats but the guy has not played much last season and won't touch the field this season.
I am not sure of his 2013/2014 season. I remember him wiffing and letting players run around him a lot prior to his contract
based year. That fact alone makes me not wan't him on the team.
So since you remember a few guys beating him 5 years ago, you don't want him on the team now? :confused:

You just said "I am not sure of his 2013/2014 season". So don't you think you probably aren't watching him close enough to say so. You're the first one to point out his mistakes early in his career (which don't matter one bit at this stage of his career) but seem to "forget" anything he's done recently? I feel like you're just digging yourself a deeper hole.
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Re: T.J. Clemmings steps into big shoes on Vikings offensive

Post by jackal »

So since you remember a few guys beating him 5 years ago, you don't want him on the team now? :confused:

You just said "I am not sure of his 2013/2014 season". So don't you think you probably aren't watching him close enough to say so. You're the first one to point out his mistakes early in his career (which don't matter one bit at this stage of his career) but seem to "forget" anything he's done recently? I feel like you're just digging yourself a deeper hole.
LOOK ... I don't care what you think !!! Stop trying to twist my words and infer what I think about '
a subject. I honestly am thinking of leaving this board because of you and a few others.

When I saw whiffing, I mean standing there and go giving no effort and just letting the defensive player
run and smack the QB.
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