Silent Vikings brass clearly sitting on brilliant plan

[dkoby]

That would be typically "Minnesota Vikings" of them.

Now this made me laugh. And of course the coaches would all get the credit for not losing the team.

[VikingLord]

Stop bashing Spielman please. He has put together some solid drafts got us contributing FA's during the offseason. It's not his fault we have a brain dead coach and an OC who runs the same 3 plays over and over. There really is nothing Spielman can say or do at this point to make the situation better.

Yeah, but could he have done more during the offseason? Was getting a guy like Freeman in the middle of the season and forcing him in an astute move for a GM?

Spielman's drafts have been solid? Better check again. He's done OK in the first round, although Ponder was a guy he liked (and so was Freeman, apparently). And also, one could argue that hitting in the 1st round isn't all that hard. But how many hits has he had in the mid and late rounds? His FA signings? How great have those moves been?

Matt Millen managed to last in Detroit way longer than he should have because the owner was apparently convinced the problem was lower down. I just pray the Vikings don't wind up in that same situation.

[Reignman]

Yeah, but could he have done more during the offseason? Was getting a guy like Freeman in the middle of the season and forcing him in an astute move for a GM?

I think it was more a desperate move, although I don't think it was a necessary move. I'm still baffled about why we gave up on Cassel so soon. We signed Freeman before Cassel had his bad game vs Carolina and after he looked good vs Pittsburgh, so again I just don't understand it. The bigger question is why we didn't come up with a better backup plan at QB in the off season. I mean it was pretty clear Ponder didn't look very good last year, but it was more important to coddle and risk wasting another season. Well here we are.

Spielman's drafts have been solid? Better check again. He's done OK in the first round, although Ponder was a guy he liked (and so was Freeman, apparently). And also, one could argue that hitting in the 1st round isn't all that hard. But how many hits has he had in the mid and late rounds?

It's hard to tell when your coaching staff believes in working the young guys in slowly. So slow in fact you can measure it with a sun dial. How do you evaluate talent if they only see the field a few plays a game? The young talent always has to come in cold. And it's clear nobody on this staff knows how to get talent more involved in the game plan. After the season opener Frazier was talking about how we got to get Patterson more involved on offense, and then again after week 2. Now it's week 8 and they still haven't figured out how to get Patterson more involved. And we've had a freak like Webb for how long? Never figured out how to get him involved either. Minnesota is the place where talent goes to waste.

Matt Millen managed to last in Detroit way longer than he should have because the owner was apparently convinced the problem was lower down. I just pray the Vikings don't wind up in that same situation.

In our case part of the problem, if not all of the problem is with the guys lower down. Frazier, Musgrave, and Williams have got to be 3 of the most clueless coaches in the league. It's just our luck they all found employment with the Vikings.

[Demi]

It's just our luck they all found employment with the Vikings.

Not quite luck when they're stuck with Christian Ponder...an ancient defensive line, and no talent anywhere else on defense...

[headless_norseman]

Stop bashing Spielman please. He has put together some solid drafts got us contributing FA's during the offseason. It's not his fault we have a brain dead coach and an OC who runs the same 3 plays over and over. There really is nothing Spielman can say or do at this point to make the situation better.

Spielman has done alright, I don't have a problem with the guy. It's the coaching and the sort of offense we are forced to run because of our QB's.

The Browns are a case in point. There is no way they have the sort of talent that we do, yet we lost to them at home.

Most any other problems noted are mostly secondary, but not helpful at all.

[Demi]

I don't have a problem with the guy. It's the coaching and the sort of offense we are forced to run because of our QB's.

Which he hand picked.

And the defense he neglected, while drafting/signing offensive talent to surround his hand picked QB with.

[nightowl]

Which he hand picked.

And the defense he neglected, while drafting/signing offensive talent to surround his hand picked QB with.

http://www.vikings.com/team/history/all ... rafts.html

You mean by using Four of the Six 1st, 2nd & 3rd Round picks he's made since 2012(when he took total control) on Defensive players... 3 of them 1st rounders? If we extend to TOA from his first draft with us in 2007, it's 7 of 12 picks on defense in the first 3 rounds. As well as that trade for some guy named Jared Allen. The Vikes have used 27 of 47 picks since then on defense. Since the Favre Ship sank the Vikes haven't been really active in FA so I don't know that it's really a fair to mention Free Agency.

It's hardly neglect. It looks to me like it's mostly Bland Coaching who can't figure out how to use or inspire talent.

On that front, It's hardly Rick's coaching staff. We got Stuck with Frazier because he was cheap, already there and they still owed Chili Money from throwing him out early.

Ponder is a irrefutable stain, but since it was still technically the TOA at the time and none of us were in the meetings I'm hesitant to lay 100% of the blame at Spielman's feet... he's still very culpable though. Freeman is an Odd situation, on one hand at least he showed he was aware Ponder was a mistake and was willing to look at other options... something many fans thought he wouldn't be willing to admit. But the nature of his first start and the subsequent pull back is concerning.

I'm not promoting keeping or firing him, but when you break it down.

Pros:
He had a hand in bringing AD, Harvin, & Jared Allen to the team. All of these guys had major question marks at time of acquisition but the risk paid off in one form or the other.
He offloaded Harvin for a good price when everyone knew he was a malcontent and wanted out.
He made the right move and took Matt Kalil over busts like Claiborne and Blackmon when many were screaming for him not to.
He moved up to get Harrison Smith and took endless crap for it from many fans... until Smith turned into a stud.
He drafted another potential game changer in Patterson when he was free falling in the draft.
He let Injury prone Sidney Rice leave and saved them from a bad contract.
He sold on Antoine Winfield at just the right time.
He's shown a knack for effectively moving around in the draft to get what he wants. He got extra picks for moving down one spot to get Kalil who everyone knew he wanted.
Claimed Jerome Felton off the scrap Heap.

Cons:
The QB situation in General
John Carlson

I'm not sure struggling to find a Good QB in a league where at a given time there are only a handful of them anyway and a mildly crappy contract to a TE offset the good things he's done. I'm not thrilled with where they are right now, but I don't think Spielman is the biggest problem at the moment... then again I'm also not 100% sure he's part of the solution.

[S197]

http://www.vikings.com/team/history/all ... rafts.html

You mean by using Four of the Six 1st, 2nd & 3rd Round picks he's made since 2012(when he took total control) on Defensive players... 3 of them 1st rounders? If we extend to TOA from his first draft with us in 2007, it's 7 of 12 picks on defense in the first 3 rounds. As well as that trade for some guy named Jared Allen. The Vikes have used 27 of 47 picks since then on defense. Since the Favre Ship sank the Vikes haven't been really active in FA so I don't know that it's really a fair to mention Free Agency.

Thank you for pointing this out. This is one of the main reasons why the lack of talent debate is really starting to lose its weight with me. It's clear the defense hasn't been neglected in the draft. Maybe the evaluation or development of said players, but then that isn't all on Spielman.

[The Breeze]

Not so sure about this part. In fact one could make a good arguement that we would have been better off getting rid of Allen as far as money vs production goes. Check out his line for the Packer game against a rookie LT.

Then extending the aging Robison while low-balling Griffen is another head scratcher for me. I think Spielman has jumped the shark when it comes to making the "shrewd" deals. Drafting guys and signing guys with severe injury history at positions of huge need like Childs, Bishop, Mauti....not saying there was a slew of other guys that were better picks, I don't know, but I'm referring to the flea market mentality of it all. Freeman is just another example. You get what you pay for.

The bigger part of the Winfield move was the impact it had on Fraizer's ability to bring a very young secondary up to speed in a time when expectations were high and his job security is not solid. There is no leader back there. If you are going to cut a guy with that kind of presence at the very least bring in some kind of vet to make it smoother transition. No effort there, whatsoever...at the very least try and talk to the guy about restructuring...or Allen. Now Winfield and his family don't even want to live in Minnesota anymore when they had plans on settling there for the long haul. That says a lot about the taste left in his mouth after dealing with Spielman and what I consider to be this clown act of a front office. I don't blame smart guys with talent for not wanting to come here or wanting to leave here and all we get is a lot of desperate cats on 1 year deals.

IMO, grading Spielman has to be more in depth than just looking at who he has or hasn't drafted. How do players feel about playing for him? I think there is a systemic respect issue going back for a few years and the FO's solution is to draft a crapload of "yes men" rather than operate in a way that earns the respect of smart football players. I can only imagine what Greg Jennings mutters to himself walking back to the huddle or standing on the sideline watching the defense implode.

There's a reason why a guy with the skillset and brains of Harvin wants out of this organization. It's easy to say the Vikings got a fair deal for him but I believe Harvin is the winner in all of it and I would be seriously surprised if he has character problems with the system in Seattle.

It's all my opinion and such and I'm not all that attached to it, plus it wasn't my intent to cherry pick your post cause I agree with a lot of your take. I'm just very lukewarm on Spielman lately.


.....truth is there is only so many ways to analyze a mess before it becomes a bore. Until they start playing the young guys solely...Floyd, Mauti, Hodges,Blanton, Patterson etc.. this offseason can't come soon enough for me.

2 cents and ugh

[Mothman]

Nightowl, it's good to see you posting again. It's been a while. Welcome back!

[nightowl]

Thank you for pointing this out. This is one of the main reasons why the lack of talent debate is really starting to lose its weight with me. It's clear the defense hasn't been neglected in the draft. Maybe the evaluation or development of said players, but then that isn't all on Spielman.

Your Welcome.

It's just something that's been bugging me about this argument. We don't know if it's bad talent plus bad coaching or just bad coaching. I personally think the coaching/leadership is so bad that I don't know if we can accurately judge the talent..beyond Ponder.
You can buy the best groceries in the world, but if your cook's capabilities end at nuking a Can of Spaghetti O's or a PB&J sandwich what can you expect.

[nightowl]

Nightowl, it's good to see you posting again. It's been a while. Welcome back!

Thanks, I still lurk around. Just haven't had much to say

[Mothman]

Thank you for pointing this out. This is one of the main reasons why the lack of talent debate is really starting to lose its weight with me. It's clear the defense hasn't been neglected in the draft. Maybe the evaluation or development of said players, but then that isn't all on Spielman.

Every team has draft choices and every team invests in talented players. The degree to which a team invests in a position matters because far more first round draft picks tend to become quality NFL players than 7th round picks or undrafted free agents but just investing picks in talented players via the draft doesn't mean you end up with good players on the field. Were the investments wise investments? Are they paying off?

The "lack of talent" argument is really about the overall quality of the players on the field, not just where they were drafted. How old are they? Are they experienced players who know what they're doing or rookies struggling to transition to the game? Are they former first or second round picks who have developed into good players or are they busts?

Spielman and the Vikings haven't completely neglected the defense in the draft and free agency but there are clearly talent/experience/age issues all over the current defense and I think you can make an argument that the LB position has been treated like an afterthought for quite a few years now.

The real question regarding the talent is: have they assembled a winning mix of defensive talent on the roster?

[Mothman]

On the starting defensive roster we have:

DE: Brian Robison (30), a former 4th round pick still in his prime.
DT: Kevin Williams (33), a former first round pick who was once one of the best in the league at his position but who has declined significantly. This year, he looks like a shadow of the player he was in his prime.
DT: Letroy Guion, a former 5th round pick who has never been much more than a journeyman NFL player.
DE: Jared Allen: another former 4th round pick who developed into one of the league's premier pass rushers.

WLB: Marvin Mitchell (29), a former 7th round pick who has spent the majority of his pro career as a backup player.
MLB: Erin Henderson (27), an undrafted free agent who has carved out a career as an average-to-slightly above average NFL linebacker, playing MLB for the first time.
SLB: Chad Greenway (30), a former first round draft pick. A good player showing some signs that age is catching up with him.

CB: Josh Robinson (22) a small school player, drafted in R3, trying to adapt to the pros as a second year starter. He's clearly struggling.
CB: Chris Cook (26), a former second round pick who has missed a huge amount of time as a pro and is looking more and more like a bust.

Nickel CB: Xavier Rhodes, a rookie trying to make the transition to the NFL. He's clearly inexperienced and is having a mix of good moments and bad as he tries to adjust to the pro game. He's been picked on a bit lately.

S: Jamarca Sanford, a former 7th round pick who is currently injured. He's another journeyman player but a hard hitter.
S Harrison Smith: former first round pick and arguably one of the only impact players on the defensive roster. he's injured and clearly missed.

There's also...
S: Andrew Sendejo: an undrafted free agent and career backup currently starting due to injury.
S: Mistral Raymond: a former 6th round pick and primarily a backup player in his pro career. He's currently playing due to injury.

WLB Desmond Bishop: a former 6th round pick coming off a major injury and injured again. He had worked his way into the lineup but overall, hasn't contributed much this season.

Sharif Floyd: first round pick who isn't a starter yet. He obviously represents a major investment and hopefully, that will pay off over the next few seasons.

The defensive side of the ball hasn't been neglected but doesn't look like a winning mix of talent and experience to me. They're really weak down the middle of the defense, even more so with the injuries at safety. The CBs on the left are struggling, either due to inexperience, the scheme or both. The CB on the right is struggling because he's Chris Cook. He can't stay on the field and when he's actually out there, he can't seem to locate the ball.

That back 7, in particular, doesn't even look like a winning group on paper.

[Mothman]

It's just something that's been bugging me about this argument. We don't know if it's bad talent plus bad coaching or just bad coaching. I personally think the coaching/leadership is so bad that I don't know if we can accurately judge the talent..beyond Ponder.
You can buy the best groceries in the world, but if your cook's capabilities end at nuking a Can of Spaghetti O's or a PB&J sandwich what can you expect.

Of course, that cuts both ways. You can have the best cook in the world but if you don't give him good ingredients, there's only so much he can do.