What's wrong with this team?

[S197]

For perspective, In three weeks Minnesota has given up

34 points to Detroit
31 points to Chicago
31 points to Cleveland.

In those same games the Vikes have scored

24 versus Detroit,
30 Versus Chicago and
27 versus Cleveland

I know fans are prone to go PONDER! PONDER! PONDER! but that's a lot of points to give up consistently. Pair the points scored with a defense that stopped people and the team would be unbeaten. The defense is the issue this season. The line is in flux, we have nobodies at LB and the backfield too often shows up just as the WR's catch the ball.

Like I said in the other thread, those numbers are being taken out of context. Some of those points "given up" are pick sixes by Ponder or other costly turnovers in Vikings territory. Likewise, some of the "scores" are plays like Cutler getting stripped and Robison returning it for a TD or Patterson running a return 100+ yards. You can't simply look at the scoreboard with no perspective and draw a conclusion. I'm not saying the defense should be absolved, when a team goes 0-3 there's a lack of execution everywhere but people need to stop pointing to the score as a basis for their conclusion unless they're going to account for everything.

[DarthBrooks]

Giving up 30+ points in three games means your defense is broken.

And for the record, Vikings were +1 in the turnovers.

[S197]

So by this logic if Ponder threw six pick sixes, the score would be 42-0 and our defense would be broken.

[Mothman]

Like I said in the other thread, those numbers are being taken out of context. Some of those points "given up" are pick sixes by Ponder or other costly turnovers in Vikings territory.

There's been one pick 6. How many turnovers have given the opposing offense the ball in FG position? I'm not being sarcastic. I just don't remember. I know there was at least one against the Lions and there are probably more.

If the ball isn't already in scoring position when it's turned over, a score allowed is still on the defense. If they're put in a bad position it's sometimes understandable but it's still their job to get stops. Even one first down shouldn't just be considered a given.

Let's not forget that the defense and special teams don't always put the offense in good positions either. Each unit's performance has some impact on the others.

Likewise, some of the "scores" are plays like Cutler getting stripped and Robison returning it for a TD or Patterson running a return 100+ yards.

That's correct. The defense has scored once. Ponder has thrown a pick 6 once and the special teams have scored one TD and allowed one TD.

Taking the above into account, through 3 games, the offense has scored 67 points (81 minus the Robison and Patterson TDs). The defense has allowed 82 (96 minus the pick 6 and the fake FG today). How many of those 82 points were the result of opposing teams getting the ball in scoring position and coming away with just 3 points?

You can't simply look at the scoreboard with no perspective and draw a conclusion.

That's true but things don't look much better for the defense when you take a closer look at how teams have scored or at the amount of yardage the Vikes are allowing (an average of 429.7 per game). They're giving up an average of 25 first downs per game, they've allowed a league-high 9 passing TDs and they've allowed an average of 114 yards rushing and 4.4 yards per carry. Teams are converting 3rd downs against them at a 45% clip.

No matter how you slice it, it's been ugly. The scores have been a reflection of those numbers and, despite the mitigating factors you were right to point out above, they've also been a pretty accurate indication of the defense's overall performance.

[Mothman]

So by this logic if Ponder threw six pick sixes, the score would be 42-0 and our defense would be broken.

Of course not but he's thrown one. Let's not make it more than it was...

This defense doesn't deserve a defense. They have to play better if the team is going to win.

[Raptorman]

Like I said in the other thread, those numbers are being taken out of context. Some of those points "given up" are pick sixes by Ponder or other costly turnovers in Vikings territory. Likewise, some of the "scores" are plays like Cutler getting stripped and Robison returning it for a TD or Patterson running a return 100+ yards. You can't simply look at the scoreboard with no perspective and draw a conclusion. I'm not saying the defense should be absolved, when a team goes 0-3 there's a lack of execution everywhere but people need to stop pointing to the score as a basis for their conclusion unless they're going to account for everything.

Yet that is exactly what is happening with Ponder. That is the point some of us are trying to make yet we keep getting thrown back to the "but Ponder didn't do this"...... or Ponder did this......It is a whole team problem yet most here are putting the blame on one man.

[CbusVikesFan]

As of now, our boat has more holes than working pieces.

If the Vikings are the boat/ship someone took a double barrel shotgun with #3 buckshot and blew SEVERAL holes in it.

[S197]

The score is a reflection of the overall teams lack of execution, which is what I said the first time. You can't say the team put up x amount of points and credit it to the offense when defense and special teams have also scored. Likewise you can't discredit the defense when the offense or special teams gives up points. My point is a score taken at face value by assigning some arbitrary value like "over 30 points" is a metric for poor performance is not looking at things in the proper context. It's no different than saying, "if you take out Petersons long run, his average would be x." It's not an average if you pick and choose stats and a score doesn't wholly tell the story of a game.

I stated I'm not absolving anyone, I really don't know how I can be any clearer.

[S197]

Of course not but he's thrown one. Let's not make it more than it was...

This defense doesn't deserve a defense. They have to play better if the team is going to win.

I was taking it to an extreme to prove a point. He said a defense that allows more than 30 points a game is broken. The defense did not allow 30 points today, unless you erroneously attribute the score on special teams to the defense. Further, I stated rather emphatically that I did not give the defense a pass, a quote that you conveniently truncated which I do not appreciate if you're going to nit pick the plurality of a single word in an entire post.

[radar55]

Head coach, OC, DC, Special teams coach, Q/B and defense.....other than that were fairly solid

[bigskyeric]

There are several things wrong with this team, but today i believe the 'unknown' is what did them in. They studied the browns all week, but the browns that showed up to the dome were a completely different team with different players at key positions. Think back to the 2010 season. The Vikings were a team with a broken spirit, on there way to a 6-10 finish. And the Eagles were on their way to the playoffs with a resurrected Michael Vick. Then, on December 28th, Joe Webb marched into town for his first career start and for the Win. We embarrassed them 24-14. Was it because Joe Webb was that good? No, it was because the Eagles had no way to plan for the Vikings with Joe Webb running the show.

The browns played lights out today. Good for them. All the Vikings accomplished was giving the rest of the league a look at the new Browns.

On the Bright side, there were good things out there today. Not enough, but it's not like we got shut out.

And... The packers lost.

*note: i don't capitalize the p in packers because it isn't worth the extra effort to reach over with my pinky to hit the shift key.

[Reignman]

Yet that is exactly what is happening with Ponder. That is the point some of us are trying to make yet we keep getting thrown back to the "but Ponder didn't do this"...... or Ponder did this......It is a whole team problem yet most here are putting the blame on one man.

No you're getting thrown back to the Ponder apology camp because you defend him at all costs. You're accusing everyone of doing exactly what you're doing except with the defense. You believe we're apologizing for or excusing the defense, which isn't the case. We're just criticizing Ponder and you show up trying to redirect us to the defense. There's plenty of criticism about the defense too and other things on the board. Ponder stinks and that's all we're saying. I don't see anyone saying the loss is all on Ponder. You on the other hand never say anything negative about Ponder, you just redirect blame. Now agree that Ponder played poorly or you're not getting ice cream after supper.

[Reignman]

Head coach, OC, DC, Special teams coach, Q/B and defense.....other than that were fairly solid

Yeah that about covers it. Don't worry, Frazier has a solution, "It's nothing we can't fix, we'll just watch some tape and tweak a few things."

Now why does that remind me of mondry's avatar?

[Raptorman]

No you're getting thrown back to the Ponder apology camp because you defend him at all costs. You're accusing everyone of doing exactly what you're doing except with the defense. You believe we're apologizing for or excusing the defense, which isn't the case. We're just criticizing Ponder and you show up trying to redirect us to the defense. There's plenty of criticism about the defense too and other things on the board. Ponder stinks and that's all we're saying. I don't see anyone saying the loss is all on Ponder. You on the other hand never say anything negative about Ponder, you just redirect blame. Now agree that Ponder played poorly or you're not getting ice cream after supper.

I am simply pointing out what the majority here are claiming and that is the Vikings are 0-3 because of Ponder. I have on more than one occasion said he has problems. But apparently you wish to overlook those statements. A few of us are looking at the whole team, which has issue's. Ponder is part of that team. To only pin the losses on him is disingenuous and just wrong. That is why there are 18 Ponder is bad threads to one thread that deals with other team problems. To not look at the defensive problems and O-line problems while focusing strictly on Ponder is putting on blinders. There is an OL and DL thread that at this time has 11 posts. Compare that to the number of Ponder is bad post's the last 6 hours. The whole team has problems. Not just Ponder. Some of us see that and wish to address it. But as soon as we do we are called Ponder apologists.

[S197]

Yet that is exactly what is happening with Ponder. That is the point some of us are trying to make yet we keep getting thrown back to the "but Ponder didn't do this"...... or Ponder did this......It is a whole team problem yet most here are putting the blame on one man.

Right. Sweeping generalities in any case is unwarranted, which is what I was trying to point out. For example, if I were to say, "Ponder has played poorly, he's never accurate!" I think everyone would agree that he has played poorly at times, but the area where you, Jim, and others take exception (and rightly so) is when I say he's never accurate. That's an erroneous simplification.

Well it's exactly the same when someone says the offense scored x and the defense gave up y. The offense did not score 30 points against Chicago, they scored 16. The defense did not give up 31 points, they gave up 24. The defense didn't give up 31 points to the Browns, they gave up 24. Can you see what I'm saying? The defense did play poorly, but showing the points for/against is not accurately telling the story.

As you can see in my last sentence, I in no way dismissed this is a team problem and have mentioned it in other threads as well.

Edit: And for the record, I have never, ever called anyone an apologist.