What is the long term question?

[Webbfann]

If Ponder-with-a-new-name plays clearly better than Cassel, put him in! You don't stop looking to the future, you just stop throwing away the chance to play competitive football NOW in deference to the future. That's all I'm saying.


I don't think I said or implied that teams aren't looking for their own Belicek or Brady, so maybe you are responding to someone else with that comment.

[Mothman]

This has to be one of the weirdest, most frustrating threads I've ever seen on this board.

[dkoby]

This has to be one of the weirdest, most frustrating threads I've ever seen on this board.

Agree, some posts contradict themselves. Hate the inconsistent non winning but don't think that finding a "long term answer" at QB is necessary. The last few weeks have been confusing to say the least in here.

[mansquatch]

My point on this seems to have been lost so I’ll restate it as I think it is salient.

I think there are two types of top 15 QBs. There are the elite guys that make their WR better via accuracy, fast release, general intangibles, etc. These are the Brees, Rogers, Manning, Brady types. Then there is the next rung down of good QB who are decent on their own, but not great. They get help from their WR/ team to become winners. Examples: Phillip Rivers, Flacco, Kaepernick (sometimes), Wilson, Matt Ryan, Eli Manning, etc.

So to me the question boils down to how do you solve the QB problem in MN. We obviously, at least until Cassel starting his recent upswing, have been in the basement of QB play. So do we “need” an Elite guy to win? My answer is “No, but it sure wouldn’t hurt.”. IMO, this kind of player is a rare gem and there is no tried and true method to figure out which prospect or FA guy is the next “that guy.” So does this mean you just have to get lucky and tolerate years of crap? IMO, the is fool hardy. GB got lucky and had a horseshoe with Favre and Rogers. That sucks. But it is what it is.

So to me the question becomes, can we win with a Good or “silver” QB. (To quote Kapp) I think recent history suggests that yes we can. The reality is that Brady/Manning/Rogers/Brees have all won superbolws and are a consistent playoff presence, but other than Brady, none have won the big game more than once. So IMO, the rest of the team matters a lot. This to me is the path the Vikings should go down. Find a player evaluator who can build a great roster and coaching team that can get the most out of it. I’m not sure Spielman is this guy, but I’m aslo not sure he isn’t. Coaching I’m a bit more dubious on due to the past 3 years of results. Admitted bad QB play was culprit, but I’m not convinced it was the only issue.

So IMO the answer is this:
1.) Do we play the luck card for the Elite QB, ie “Tank for Teddy" or whatever.
Answer yes: Start tanking, I think this is stupd
Answer No: Keep Drafting to find the guy, but Silver is OK. This leads to:

2.) Do we think Spielman can pick the next QB and do we think he can pick the other positions to build a championship roster? IF yes keep him, if no, can him. Reports are that the Wilfs are happy with him. I’m not convinced he is the greatest GM, but I’m not sure who is and I’m sure Spielman is below average either. I think he is average to good, maybe better.

3.) Do we think our current coaching group is able to make it happen? IMO, I think Frasier is a great motivator and talent developer. He is average on Game Day. Where I think he is weak is talent eval and his schematics are outdated. The question is can these things get fixed enough to win a championship with him at the helm? IMO, the answer is most likely No, but I’m not 100% sold. He is still the most professional coach we’ve had since before Denny. But is that a product of the rest being awful or Frasier being good? I don’t know.

That to me is the long term answer. I also think it is worth pointing out that I dissagree we are in a total rebuild. We've gotton younger and have a solid roster. We've got holes for sure, most obvious at QB. But we are not as bad as the 2011 club. This to me is also probably what will spell Frasier's demise. We are better club than even 2012, but our record does not reflect it.

[Funkytown]

So to me the question boils down to how do you solve the QB problem in MN. We obviously, at least until Cassel starting his recent upswing, have been in the basement of QB play. So do we “need” an Elite guy to win? My answer is “No, but it sure wouldn’t hurt.”. IMO, this kind of player is a rare gem and there is no tried and true method to figure out which prospect or FA guy is the next “that guy.” So does this mean you just have to get lucky and tolerate years of crap? IMO, the is fool hardy. GB got lucky and had a horseshoe with Favre and Rogers. That sucks. But it is what it is.

So to me the question becomes, can we win with a Good or “silver” QB. (To quote Kapp) I think recent history suggests that yes we can.

Yes, yes we can!

[Mothman]

Not to beat a dead horse but for anyone who doesn't understand the preference to draft and develop a franchise QB as the long term answer at the position, here's a pretty concrete illustration of why so many people have that preference:

The winning QBs in 34 of 47 Super Bowls (basically 80%) were drafted and developed by those championship teams. Several of those QBs won multiple Super Bowls.

Super Bowls 1-2: Bart Starr
3: Joe Namath
6: Roger Staubach
7-8: Bob Griese
9-10: Terry Bradshaw
11: Ken Stabler
12: Roger Staubach
13-14: Terry Bradshaw
16: Joe Montana
19: Joe Montana
20: Jim McMahon
21: Phil Simms
23-24: Joe Montana
25: Jeff Hostetler
26: Mark Rypien
27-28: Troy Aikman
30: Troy Aikman
32-33: John Elway
36: Tom Brady
38-39: Tom Brady
40: Ben Roethlisberger
41: Peyton Manning
42: Eli Manning
43: Ben Roethlisberger
45: Aaron Rodgers
46: Eli Manning
47: Joe Flacco

------------------
11 Super Bowls have been won by QBs who were drafted by another team. Ironically, 3 of those QBs were drafted by Tampa Bay and when the Bucs finally won a Super Bowl, it was with Brad Johnson, who was drafted by the Vikings.

Jim Plunkett is the only one of the 10 QBs below to win two Super Bowls.

4: Len Dawson (drafted by Pittsburgh in 1957)
5: Earl Morrall (drafted by SF in 1956)
15: Jim Plunkett (drafted by NE in 1971)
17: Joe Theismann (drafted by Miami in 1971)
18: Jim Plunkett
22: Doug Williams (drafted by TB in 1978)
29: Steve Young (drafted by TB in 1984)
31: Brett Favre (drafted by Atlanta in 1991)
35: Trent Dilfer (drafted by TB in 1994)
37: Brad Johnson (drafted by Minnesota in 1992)
44: Drew Brees (drafted by SD in 2001)

As I believe someone mentioned earlier in this thread, Favre wasn't drafted by GB but he was basically developed by them after spending one uneventful season as a backup in Atlanta.

Kurt Warner isn't on either list because he doesn't fit neatly into either category. He was undrafted but the first time he made an NFL roster it was with the Rams in '98, which puts him closer to the first category than the second. They didn't draft him and they weren't the first team to bring him to camp but he was developed and won it all on their roster.

It's pretty clear that you don't need a superstar QB or a "home-grown" QB to win it all but history sure suggests that drafting and developing a QB gives teams a better chance to win the Super Bowl and a better chance to win more than one. There are plenty of other factors involved in winning it all too so I don't want to over-similify things. The point is simply that there's a compelling reason why fans would prefer to see the Vikes draft and develop a franchise QB.

[soflavike]

The question is: "Will the freaking Vikings win a freaking Super Bowl before I'm dead and buried."

[J. Kapp 11]

The question is: "Will the freaking Vikings win a freaking Super Bowl before I'm dead and buried."

That's the only question I care about.

I've lived through "sustained championship caliber play" in the 70s. No rings.

One ring before I die, and I'll die happy.

[Purple bruise]

The question is: "Will the freaking Vikings win a freaking Super Bowl before I'm dead and buried."

I have some really bad news for you. Unless you are a direct decendent of Methuselah, who's age at death is given in the Bible as 960 or 969, then there is not much hope for staying alive long enough

[Mothman]

That's the only question I care about.

I've lived through "sustained championship caliber play" in the 70s. No rings.

When I used that phrase, I meant it as the caliber of play that wins league championships. In other words, Super Bowls.

[The Breeze]

All the usual talk of QBs and yet Rodgers and P Manning have 2 SBs between them...because their defenses have blown.

A good competent QB is a must...because winning games happens on the field. Having a coach an GM who understand that it requires a helluva lot more than a star qb is just as important.

Eli Manning is a 2time superbowl winner...he is a good QB. It's arguable that he wasn't the best player on either of those giant teams.

I'd say coach is just as important as QB. Long term question for me would be on a case by case basis, 'does this guy want to win a championship?' at every position.

That's how I believe the Belicheks and the Gibbs, Coughlins etc run their shows. They cut the fat from the roster and keep the smart hungry players....those are the guys who come up big when it counts. Not the guys who get burned late in games week after week after week~

[J. Kapp 11]

When I used that phrase, I meant it as the caliber of play that wins league championships. In other words, Super Bowls.

Isn't that what I said?

[Mothman]

Isn't that what I said?

I don't think so, unless "no rings" was supposed to mean something other than "no Super Bowl wins". I just don't know how else to interpret your comments. If I missed something, I apologize. I'm not trying to be difficult.