Kirk Cousins: Baker or Chef?

[CharVike]

I'm marginally optimistic, as Kubiak 'N Friends have had pretty good rushing success where they go. With an improved offensive line (here's hoping for average!), a healthy Dalvin and Zimmer's commitment to the run, hopefully that translates into better rushing success (please don't suck as much as I think you're going to, Kline).

If there's any hope in Kline it's that he was part of a Tennessee offense that was 6th in the NFL in rushing last season. How much he had to do with that, or whether he can pass protect ... I have no idea. But it's at least something.

Bottom line I think he will be an improvement. How much? Time will tell but he needs to step up because he's the only body right now. I fully understand with the CAP no team is deep everywhere.We did draft a young guy but I don't think he will be ready this year. Hopefully Kub sticks with the ground game and it works. That will open up the pass game. Considering with Cousins it was pass pass pass ect I'm surprised he did as well as he did.

[S197]

I'm marginally optimistic, as Kubiak 'N Friends have had pretty good rushing success where they go. With an improved offensive line (here's hoping for average!), a healthy Dalvin and Zimmer's commitment to the run, hopefully that translates into better rushing success (please don't suck as much as I think you're going to, Kline).

If there's any hope in Kline it's that he was part of a Tennessee offense that was 6th in the NFL in rushing last season. How much he had to do with that, or whether he can pass protect ... I have no idea. But it's at least something.

Curious how much Mariota played into this as one of the better scrambling QBs. They also had a good pair of RBs.

[J. Kapp 11]

If there's any hope in Kline it's that he was part of a Tennessee offense that was 6th in the NFL in rushing last season. How much he had to do with that, or whether he can pass protect ... I have no idea. But it's at least something.

Curious how much Mariota played into this as one of the better scrambling QBs. They also had a good pair of RBs.

I hate to say it, but Marcus Mariota is right on the verge of being a bust. He's gone downhill every year since his second year in 2016. He can't drive the ball downfield, and he throws too many picks with too few TDs. He's also been criticized pretty heavily for hanging on to the ball too long.

As for the running backs, Derrick Henry had two amazing games that netted him 40% of his season total. Dion Lewis averaged 3.3 YPC. Not that great.

It's really hard to say whether Josh Kline is a significant upgrade. God help us if he's not better than Mike Remmers.

[S197]

Curious how much Mariota played into this as one of the better scrambling QBs. They also had a good pair of RBs.

I hate to say it, but Marcus Mariota is right on the verge of being a bust. He's gone downhill every year since his second year in 2016. He can't drive the ball downfield, and he throws too many picks with too few TDs. He's also been criticized pretty heavily for hanging on to the ball too long.

As for the running backs, Derrick Henry had two amazing games that netted him 40% of his season total. Dion Lewis averaged 3.3 YPC. Not that great.

It's really hard to say whether Josh Kline is a significant upgrade. God help us if he's not better than Mike Remmers.

I forgot about Lewis, I was thinking about the Henry/DeMarco Murray combo but that wasn’t last year.

[fiestavike]

He's absolutely a baker, which some coaches probably love, because if you can give him the right circumstances he'll be very precise and consistent. If you don't give him those circumstances though? He cannot adapt on the fly AT ALL and will quickly become a net negative. I want game manager Kirk to be given a game plan that includes pushing for the 40 yard completion when its the best option, or throwing in 15 yards out of bounds when its the best option. Be the robot you are Kirk. His programing will go totally haywire if he faces situations he wasn't 'programed' to handle in a particular fashion.

[S197]

I don't know what I see him as so far. I guess I would lean baker but then you have those games like @GB. I mean he wasn't a baker in that game, he flat out carried the team to what should have been a win.

If I see the same Kirk as last year with an average line and run game, I'll be ready to say definitively, but for now I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[808vikingsfan]

I don't think you can win with a baker. Less flexibility. Everything has to be perfect. You need a qb that can think on the fly when things break down. Cousins has not shown he can do that. Chefs rule in the NFL.

[fiestavike]

I don't think you can win with a baker. Less flexibility. Everything has to be perfect. You need a qb that can think on the fly when things break down. Cousins has not shown he can do that. Chefs rule in the NFL.

I think you can win with a baker if you don't ask him to be a chef. But I must admit, that is an approach to football that is so old fashioned as to be nearly obsolete. If you aren't taking advantage of the rule changes that make it so hard to play defense without being penalized, its going to be hard to defeat a team that is taking advantage of those rule changes. A QB who can adapt on the fly and apply more pressure to defenses has a HUGE advantage in today's NFL, where every second of effective pass defense is a mini-miracle. By today's standards, I don't think its possible for a QB who can't do that to be considered a top tier QB. Still if the team around him can help dictate circumstances to the defense, a baker can have consistent, sustained success. This should be the best two year stretch of Kirk Cousins career. If it isn't, he's not a viable NFL starting QB anymore, just a placeholder and likely a journeyman going forward.

[CharVike]

Curious how much Mariota played into this as one of the better scrambling QBs. They also had a good pair of RBs.

I hate to say it, but Marcus Mariota is right on the verge of being a bust. He's gone downhill every year since his second year in 2016. He can't drive the ball downfield, and he throws too many picks with too few TDs. He's also been criticized pretty heavily for hanging on to the ball too long.

As for the running backs, Derrick Henry had two amazing games that netted him 40% of his season total. Dion Lewis averaged 3.3 YPC. Not that great.

It's really hard to say whether Josh Kline is a significant upgrade. God help us if he's not better than Mike Remmers.

He could be a bust. If it happens they wasted how many seasons. 5? Just to see if he can play. That's why I like the Cousins signing. We know what we have. Is he or will he ever be Rodgers? Nope. Lacks that type of skill set. Will he be a HOFer? Nope. But he's certainly not a bum. I'm not a huge fan of running QBs like this Mariota. That's the last thing you want is your QB taking those hits outside the pocket. That's asking for it. I want a guy that can pass the ball effectively and run the O and limit the mistakes. That gives a team a chance.

[StumpHunter]

I hate to say it, but Marcus Mariota is right on the verge of being a bust. He's gone downhill every year since his second year in 2016. He can't drive the ball downfield, and he throws too many picks with too few TDs. He's also been criticized pretty heavily for hanging on to the ball too long.

As for the running backs, Derrick Henry had two amazing games that netted him 40% of his season total. Dion Lewis averaged 3.3 YPC. Not that great.

It's really hard to say whether Josh Kline is a significant upgrade. God help us if he's not better than Mike Remmers.

He could be a bust. If it happens they wasted how many seasons. 5? Just to see if he can play. That's why I like the Cousins signing. We know what we have. Is he or will he ever be Rodgers? Nope. Lacks that type of skill set. Will he be a HOFer? Nope. But he's certainly not a bum. I'm not a huge fan of running QBs like this Mariota. That's the last thing you want is your QB taking those hits outside the pocket. That's asking for it. I want a guy that can pass the ball effectively and run the O and limit the mistakes. That gives a team a chance.

Mariota isn't really a running QB any more than Wentz is though. Mobile sure, but not a running QB.

I am curious what you think of Cam,Wilson or Winston as QBs?

[J. Kapp 11]

He could be a bust. If it happens they wasted how many seasons. 5? Just to see if he can play. That's why I like the Cousins signing. We know what we have. Is he or will he ever be Rodgers? Nope. Lacks that type of skill set. Will he be a HOFer? Nope. But he's certainly not a bum. I'm not a huge fan of running QBs like this Mariota. That's the last thing you want is your QB taking those hits outside the pocket. That's asking for it. I want a guy that can pass the ball effectively and run the O and limit the mistakes. That gives a team a chance.

Mariota isn't really a running QB any more than Wentz is though. Mobile sure, but not a running QB.

I am curious what you think of Cam,Wilson or Winston as QBs?

I know you didn't ask me, but here's my opinion.

Russell Wilson is a great quarterback, period. Probably a HOFer. Not because he can run, but because he can flat-out sling it. He's a great passer. Not good ... great. Accurate, on time, very strong arm ... just great. Add in his legs, his ability to throw on the move, his smarts ... and you have a great QB. This guy has played for several years at an elite level, and he's almost never had a decent offensive line.

Cam is a lot of flash and potential, but he's really only had one great season -- typical for quarterbacks who rely on their legs. After several years of running way too much, he now has trouble staying on the field. He's always had a cannon, but with no guidance system. There was a time he could make up for his inaccuracy with his legs, but those days might be behind him.

Winston ... his time never came. Overrated in almost every way. What's especially troubling is that he continues to make terrible decision after terrible decision, both on and off the field. I wouldn't carry the guy as a backup. Don't be surprised if this is his last season in Tampa.

[CharVike]

Why run a 3 yard route when 7 is needed? Now if that 3 yard route was used to setup a first down route by another player then the read was bad or the other guy wasn't open and this was a dump off. IMO to get through the playoffs Zimmers D needs to play some football against these better teams. Without that nothing else really matters. If it's a shoot out Cousins along with most QBs will have a tough time.

I used to get frustrated with those 3rd down routes that went short of the sticks, but I can see some logic to them, mostly because the defense is more likely to concede them, giving the QB a safe option if deeper routes are not open (and thus reducing the chances of a negative play), but also because there is a chance that the receiver could pick up the extra yards necessary to get the 1st down even if the ball is caught short of the sticks.

So there is some logic to having a short route on 3rd downs which are obvious passing situations. Along that line, however, that short route should never be the primary, or even secondary, look for the QB unless he's under heavy pressure. As StumpHunter points out, a QB who consistently settles for the safe, short throw on 3rd down is not going to convert many of those opportunities to keep drives alive as it's unlikely the receiver will consistently pick up the extra yardage necessary to convert.

I just hope the Vikings can do a better job of pass protection next year. They've got the receivers and tight ends and RBs to be very effective at converting 3rd downs next season, and I personally think Cousins can make it happen if he has time. The protection was so inconsistent last season and it really took a toll on the entire offense. If that is even partially corrected, I'd expect a marked improvement on 3rd down.

I can get down easy especially with the way our O played last year. That OC we had was a horses a??. I also don't like the fact that we keep changing systems at the drop of a hat. Is it Zim? I'm hoping the new crew we have really makes it work. As you pointed out we are solid across the board and I agree with that. But I do see an improvement happening. I like getting Kub in here because the main guy has no experience as an OC. Plus I do feel the OL will improve. Kline is a ?. But Oneil should be better and he was actually a good player last year. Elf is also a ?. So there are still questions.

[StumpHunter]

Mariota isn't really a running QB any more than Wentz is though. Mobile sure, but not a running QB.

I am curious what you think of Cam,Wilson or Winston as QBs?

I know you didn't ask me, but here's my opinion.

Russell Wilson is a great quarterback, period. Probably a HOFer. Not because he can run, but because he can flat-out sling it. He's a great passer. Not good ... great. Accurate, on time, very strong arm ... just great. Add in his legs, his ability to throw on the move, his smarts ... and you have a great QB. This guy has played for several years at an elite level, and he's almost never had a decent offensive line.

Cam is a lot of flash and potential, but he's really only had one great season -- typical for quarterbacks who rely on their legs. After several years of running way too much, he now has trouble staying on the field. He's always had a cannon, but with no guidance system. There was a time he could make up for his inaccuracy with his legs, but those days might be behind him.

Winston ... his time never came. Overrated in almost every way. What's especially troubling is that he continues to make terrible decision after terrible decision, both on and off the field. I wouldn't carry the guy as a backup. Don't be surprised if this is his last season in Tampa.

I have gotten into this in another thread, but what is your basis for thinking Wilson isn't a great passer? The numbers say he is one of the greatest of all time. 2nd in passer rating and a higher completion percentage than Brady.

[mansquatch]

I used to get frustrated with those 3rd down routes that went short of the sticks, but I can see some logic to them, mostly because the defense is more likely to concede them, giving the QB a safe option if deeper routes are not open (and thus reducing the chances of a negative play), but also because there is a chance that the receiver could pick up the extra yards necessary to get the 1st down even if the ball is caught short of the sticks.

So there is some logic to having a short route on 3rd downs which are obvious passing situations. Along that line, however, that short route should never be the primary, or even secondary, look for the QB unless he's under heavy pressure. As StumpHunter points out, a QB who consistently settles for the safe, short throw on 3rd down is not going to convert many of those opportunities to keep drives alive as it's unlikely the receiver will consistently pick up the extra yardage necessary to convert.

I just hope the Vikings can do a better job of pass protection next year. They've got the receivers and tight ends and RBs to be very effective at converting 3rd downs next season, and I personally think Cousins can make it happen if he has time. The protection was so inconsistent last season and it really took a toll on the entire offense. If that is even partially corrected, I'd expect a marked improvement on 3rd down.

Yeah you can't run everything at or beyond the sticks because the defense knows where the sticks are too. As in one of the examples, you run a mesh in front to draw the LBs up and a sit route behind.

The main issue is 3rd and long is very difficult to convert in the NFL no matter what you run. The Vikings need to do better on 1st down especially. Too many runs for negative or 1 yard gains.

The last game against the Bears was a great example. The Bears were very successful on 1st down, regularly running for 3 or 4 yards. This made Trubisky's job a lot easier. Conversely, the Vikings struggled on 1st down and the offense was noticably impacted.

If there's one thing I hope Kubiak brings, it's some semblance of a run game. Cousins throwing 50 times a game is not going to end well.

I think Zimmer's comments about volume of offense and his desire for a running game indicate he concurs with this thinking. It really felt like our 1st and 2nd down play calling was lack luster last season.

[VikingLord]

How about this?

The more capable and competent the overall team (including the coaches), the less the success of any single player, including the QB, comes down to him being a "chef" versus a "baker".

In other words, success in a team sport comes down more to the overall play of the team than particular brilliance from a single player. Brilliance from a single player certainly doesn't hurt the team's chances, but when a team relies on that for it's success, then if that player fails, the team fails.

This is why having a Randy Moss, or an Adrian Peterson, or even a Brett Favre in 2009, doesn't ensure a Superbowl appearance, much less a win, and why a team like the Patriots dominate year after year with or without superlative players beyond Tom Brady. It can even be argued that Tom Brady isn't a superlative player, at least in terms of physical capability, but that within the system he plays in, he executes it masterfully and consistently. Brady could be the ultimate baker in that regard.

So if Kirk Cousins is a baker, I would say who cares? Who cares if he's not a Brett Favre "chef" who can pull rabbits out of hats? The Vikings have had some incredible players over the many years of their existence. Some of them have literally been the best overall at their positions, both in particular seasons and even among the all-time greats in the NFL. And yet, the team has not won a Lombardi trophy.

What the Vikings need from Kirk Cousins is competence and mastery of the system he runs. If he does his part and gets the same from his coaches and teammates, he can get the team to a Superbowl and win it. I'd go farther and argue that the more the Vikings press a guy like Cousins to play like a chef, the less likely they are to get the ultimate result they brought him in to achieve.

Cousins is a baker and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. If they get some chef out of him, great, but they shouldn't need that.