Kirk Cousins: Baker or Chef?

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Kirk Cousins: Baker or Chef?

Post by dead_poet »

I thought this was an excellent read about Kirk and puts into words exactly my feelings about him.

https://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2019/07/12/m ... ssion=true
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Re: Kirk Cousins: Baker or Chef?

Post by StumpHunter »

A great analogy.

Cousins for the most part doesn't lose you games, but he doesn't win them for you either, because he just doesn't have that extra "it" that could make him a great chef/qb.

The points made in this article are why people are so adamant about defending Cousins. He consistently makes the right read, and makes a good pass to that read. It is just that the right read might be a 3 yard pass on 3rd and 7. Completing a pass but ending a drive. That probably is enough to beat bad teams, but it isn't going to get you far in the playoffs
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Re: Kirk Cousins: Baker or Chef?

Post by Fat Stupid Loser »

Kirk is the Cake Boss of bakers.
Fix the O line and he will bake us a by the cook book ring. Don't fix it and those chef's in New England will again.
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Re: Kirk Cousins: Baker or Chef?

Post by Passepartout »

Do not know about baker or chef but to me it should be Super Bowl or choke!
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Re: Kirk Cousins: Baker or Chef?

Post by CharVike »

StumpHunter wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:59 am A great analogy.

Cousins for the most part doesn't lose you games, but he doesn't win them for you either, because he just doesn't have that extra "it" that could make him a great chef/qb.

The points made in this article are why people are so adamant about defending Cousins. He consistently makes the right read, and makes a good pass to that read. It is just that the right read might be a 3 yard pass on 3rd and 7. Completing a pass but ending a drive. That probably is enough to beat bad teams, but it isn't going to get you far in the playoffs
Why run a 3 yard route when 7 is needed? Now if that 3 yard route was used to setup a first down route by another player then the read was bad or the other guy wasn't open and this was a dump off. IMO to get through the playoffs Zimmers D needs to play some football against these better teams. Without that nothing else really matters. If it's a shoot out Cousins along with most QBs will have a tough time.
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Re: Kirk Cousins: Baker or Chef?

Post by S197 »

I think it's an interesting analogy and a good question although I don't know that those plays exhibit it. One the first play, Diggs looks more open than he is because the safety breaks after the ball is in the air towards Robinson. Robinson is open and it isn't a check down so it didn't seem very "baker" to me.

The second play, the sit route is open. But can we recognize that the Patriots rushed 3 guys and yet still pushed the interior line about 9 yards back? Thielen is the third read at earliest and given the amount of guys they dropped in coverage, Cousins should have had the time to go through his progressions but his lineman is literally driven into him as he releases the ball. Maybe a second more and he sees thielen.

The third example was a good one, those are the times where he needs to push the ball downfield and allow his guys to make plays.

I think Cousins could use a little more gunslinger in him but that's not the type of QB he is so expectations for that shouldn't be high. Hopefully if the line can improve, he'll be able to make reads like in play #2. Sometimes it's just 4 or 5 plays a game that make a difference.
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Re: Kirk Cousins: Baker or Chef?

Post by StumpHunter »

S197 wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:42 am I think it's an interesting analogy and a good question although I don't know that those plays exhibit it. One the first play, Diggs looks more open than he is because the safety breaks after the ball is in the air towards Robinson. Robinson is open and it isn't a check down so it didn't seem very "baker" to me.

The second play, the sit route is open. But can we recognize that the Patriots rushed 3 guys and yet still pushed the interior line about 9 yards back? Thielen is the third read at earliest and given the amount of guys they dropped in coverage, Cousins should have had the time to go through his progressions but his lineman is literally driven into him as he releases the ball. Maybe a second more and he sees thielen.

The third example was a good one, those are the times where he needs to push the ball downfield and allow his guys to make plays.

I think Cousins could use a little more gunslinger in him but that's not the type of QB he is so expectations for that shouldn't be high. Hopefully if the line can improve, he'll be able to make reads like in play #2. Sometimes it's just 4 or 5 plays a game that make a difference.
The first one the safety has no shot at making a play on Diggs, even before he breaks towards the ball. Diggs had multiple steps on his guy, and Cousins didn't see him.

The second the Pat's intentionally attacked the middle like they did all game, because it was the weakest part of the line, and because they realized they didn't have to worry about holding the edge with our QB. He had plenty of time on that play, and they did essentially rush 4 btw. Reiff has to account for the LBer even if he is just standing there. I count 4 seconds before he throws it and that is plenty of time to find Theilen. He could also have bought more time by simply moving left or right in the pocket. Unheard of I know
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Re: Kirk Cousins: Baker or Chef?

Post by S197 »

StumpHunter wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:25 am
S197 wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:42 am I think it's an interesting analogy and a good question although I don't know that those plays exhibit it. One the first play, Diggs looks more open than he is because the safety breaks after the ball is in the air towards Robinson. Robinson is open and it isn't a check down so it didn't seem very "baker" to me.

The second play, the sit route is open. But can we recognize that the Patriots rushed 3 guys and yet still pushed the interior line about 9 yards back? Thielen is the third read at earliest and given the amount of guys they dropped in coverage, Cousins should have had the time to go through his progressions but his lineman is literally driven into him as he releases the ball. Maybe a second more and he sees thielen.

The third example was a good one, those are the times where he needs to push the ball downfield and allow his guys to make plays.

I think Cousins could use a little more gunslinger in him but that's not the type of QB he is so expectations for that shouldn't be high. Hopefully if the line can improve, he'll be able to make reads like in play #2. Sometimes it's just 4 or 5 plays a game that make a difference.
The first one the safety has no shot at making a play on Diggs, even before he breaks towards the ball. Diggs had multiple steps on his guy, and Cousins didn't see him.

The second the Pat's intentionally attacked the middle like they did all game, because it was the weakest part of the line, and because they realized they didn't have to worry about holding the edge with our QB. He had plenty of time on that play, and they did essentially rush 4 btw. Reiff has to account for the LBer even if he is just standing there. I count 4 seconds before he throws it and that is plenty of time to find Theilen. He could also have bought more time by simply moving left or right in the pocket. Unheard of I know
The safety is playing cover-1 and covering mid-field. Diggs is tighter to the hash vs Robinson. Safety has less distance to close on Diggs. Cousins didn't see Diggs because his first read is Robinson and he had a 1v1 matchup. I don't have a problem with the throw, hindsight is easy in certain cases, you're not going through every single progression every time.

So someone standing there in spy/coverage is now a rusher? Cousins is expected to make 1 read a second but Reiff isn't responsible to see the guy right in front of him isn't rushing and change protection? Yes, they attacked the weakest part of the line, which was my point. You shouldn't be bull rushed by 3 guys into giving up 9 yards. It's closer to 3 seconds as well. Also the play went for 4 yards on 1st down, it could have been more but 2nd and 6 isn't a terrible thing.
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Re: Kirk Cousins: Baker or Chef?

Post by StumpHunter »

S197 wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:35 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:25 am
The first one the safety has no shot at making a play on Diggs, even before he breaks towards the ball. Diggs had multiple steps on his guy, and Cousins didn't see him.

The second the Pat's intentionally attacked the middle like they did all game, because it was the weakest part of the line, and because they realized they didn't have to worry about holding the edge with our QB. He had plenty of time on that play, and they did essentially rush 4 btw. Reiff has to account for the LBer even if he is just standing there. I count 4 seconds before he throws it and that is plenty of time to find Theilen. He could also have bought more time by simply moving left or right in the pocket. Unheard of I know
The safety is playing cover-1 and covering mid-field. Diggs is tighter to the hash vs Robinson. Safety has less distance to close on Diggs. Cousins didn't see Diggs because his first read is Robinson and he had a 1v1 matchup. I don't have a problem with the throw, hindsight is easy in certain cases, you're not going through every single progression every time.

So someone standing there in spy/coverage is now a rusher? Cousins is expected to make 1 read a second but Reiff isn't responsible to see the guy right in front of him isn't rushing and change protection? Yes, they attacked the weakest part of the line, which was my point. You shouldn't be bull rushed by 3 guys into giving up 9 yards. It's closer to 3 seconds as well. Also the play went for 4 yards on 1st down, it could have been more but 2nd and 6 isn't a terrible thing.
The whole point of the article is that Cousins did all three of those plays by the book, but had opportunities for big opportunities. He should have recognized his #1 WR being wide open for a huge gain if not a TD, he should have stepped to the left or right to buy an extra split second, or just made his reads quicker. If you miss multiples plays like that in a games, you aren't going to beat the really good teams like the Pats. Ever.
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Re: Kirk Cousins: Baker or Chef?

Post by VikingLord »

CharVike wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:13 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:59 am A great analogy.

Cousins for the most part doesn't lose you games, but he doesn't win them for you either, because he just doesn't have that extra "it" that could make him a great chef/qb.

The points made in this article are why people are so adamant about defending Cousins. He consistently makes the right read, and makes a good pass to that read. It is just that the right read might be a 3 yard pass on 3rd and 7. Completing a pass but ending a drive. That probably is enough to beat bad teams, but it isn't going to get you far in the playoffs
Why run a 3 yard route when 7 is needed? Now if that 3 yard route was used to setup a first down route by another player then the read was bad or the other guy wasn't open and this was a dump off. IMO to get through the playoffs Zimmers D needs to play some football against these better teams. Without that nothing else really matters. If it's a shoot out Cousins along with most QBs will have a tough time.
I used to get frustrated with those 3rd down routes that went short of the sticks, but I can see some logic to them, mostly because the defense is more likely to concede them, giving the QB a safe option if deeper routes are not open (and thus reducing the chances of a negative play), but also because there is a chance that the receiver could pick up the extra yards necessary to get the 1st down even if the ball is caught short of the sticks.

So there is some logic to having a short route on 3rd downs which are obvious passing situations. Along that line, however, that short route should never be the primary, or even secondary, look for the QB unless he's under heavy pressure. As StumpHunter points out, a QB who consistently settles for the safe, short throw on 3rd down is not going to convert many of those opportunities to keep drives alive as it's unlikely the receiver will consistently pick up the extra yardage necessary to convert.

I just hope the Vikings can do a better job of pass protection next year. They've got the receivers and tight ends and RBs to be very effective at converting 3rd downs next season, and I personally think Cousins can make it happen if he has time. The protection was so inconsistent last season and it really took a toll on the entire offense. If that is even partially corrected, I'd expect a marked improvement on 3rd down.
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Re: Kirk Cousins: Baker or Chef?

Post by S197 »

VikingLord wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:34 pm
CharVike wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:13 pm
Why run a 3 yard route when 7 is needed? Now if that 3 yard route was used to setup a first down route by another player then the read was bad or the other guy wasn't open and this was a dump off. IMO to get through the playoffs Zimmers D needs to play some football against these better teams. Without that nothing else really matters. If it's a shoot out Cousins along with most QBs will have a tough time.
I used to get frustrated with those 3rd down routes that went short of the sticks, but I can see some logic to them, mostly because the defense is more likely to concede them, giving the QB a safe option if deeper routes are not open (and thus reducing the chances of a negative play), but also because there is a chance that the receiver could pick up the extra yards necessary to get the 1st down even if the ball is caught short of the sticks.

So there is some logic to having a short route on 3rd downs which are obvious passing situations. Along that line, however, that short route should never be the primary, or even secondary, look for the QB unless he's under heavy pressure. As StumpHunter points out, a QB who consistently settles for the safe, short throw on 3rd down is not going to convert many of those opportunities to keep drives alive as it's unlikely the receiver will consistently pick up the extra yardage necessary to convert.

I just hope the Vikings can do a better job of pass protection next year. They've got the receivers and tight ends and RBs to be very effective at converting 3rd downs next season, and I personally think Cousins can make it happen if he has time. The protection was so inconsistent last season and it really took a toll on the entire offense. If that is even partially corrected, I'd expect a marked improvement on 3rd down.
Yeah you can't run everything at or beyond the sticks because the defense knows where the sticks are too. As in one of the examples, you run a mesh in front to draw the LBs up and a sit route behind.

The main issue is 3rd and long is very difficult to convert in the NFL no matter what you run. The Vikings need to do better on 1st down especially. Too many runs for negative or 1 yard gains.

The last game against the Bears was a great example. The Bears were very successful on 1st down, regularly running for 3 or 4 yards. This made Trubisky's job a lot easier. Conversely, the Vikings struggled on 1st down and the offense was noticably impacted.

If there's one thing I hope Kubiak brings, it's some semblance of a run game. Cousins throwing 50 times a game is not going to end well.
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Re: Kirk Cousins: Baker or Chef?

Post by dead_poet »

S197 wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:07 pmThe Vikings need to do better on 1st down especially. Too many runs for negative or 1 yard gains.
I feel like this has been an issue for 20 years.
If there's one thing I hope Kubiak brings, it's some semblance of a run game. Cousins throwing 50 times a game is not going to end well.
I'm marginally optimistic, as Kubiak 'N Friends have had pretty good rushing success where they go. With an improved offensive line (here's hoping for average!), a healthy Dalvin and Zimmer's commitment to the run, hopefully that translates into better rushing success (please don't suck as much as I think you're going to, Kline).
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Re: Kirk Cousins: Baker or Chef?

Post by CharVike »

S197 wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:07 pm
VikingLord wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:34 pm

I used to get frustrated with those 3rd down routes that went short of the sticks, but I can see some logic to them, mostly because the defense is more likely to concede them, giving the QB a safe option if deeper routes are not open (and thus reducing the chances of a negative play), but also because there is a chance that the receiver could pick up the extra yards necessary to get the 1st down even if the ball is caught short of the sticks.

So there is some logic to having a short route on 3rd downs which are obvious passing situations. Along that line, however, that short route should never be the primary, or even secondary, look for the QB unless he's under heavy pressure. As StumpHunter points out, a QB who consistently settles for the safe, short throw on 3rd down is not going to convert many of those opportunities to keep drives alive as it's unlikely the receiver will consistently pick up the extra yardage necessary to convert.

I just hope the Vikings can do a better job of pass protection next year. They've got the receivers and tight ends and RBs to be very effective at converting 3rd downs next season, and I personally think Cousins can make it happen if he has time. The protection was so inconsistent last season and it really took a toll on the entire offense. If that is even partially corrected, I'd expect a marked improvement on 3rd down.
Yeah you can't run everything at or beyond the sticks because the defense knows where the sticks are too. As in one of the examples, you run a mesh in front to draw the LBs up and a sit route behind.

The main issue is 3rd and long is very difficult to convert in the NFL no matter what you run. The Vikings need to do better on 1st down especially. Too many runs for negative or 1 yard gains.

The last game against the Bears was a great example. The Bears were very successful on 1st down, regularly running for 3 or 4 yards. This made Trubisky's job a lot easier. Conversely, the Vikings struggled on 1st down and the offense was noticably impacted.

If there's one thing I hope Kubiak brings, it's some semblance of a run game. Cousins throwing 50 times a game is not going to end well.
You guys bring up some good points and I understand the fact that the receiver can gain yards with his feet.
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Re: Kirk Cousins: Baker or Chef?

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

dead_poet wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:53 pmI'm marginally optimistic, as Kubiak 'N Friends have had pretty good rushing success where they go. With an improved offensive line (here's hoping for average!), a healthy Dalvin and Zimmer's commitment to the run, hopefully that translates into better rushing success (please don't suck as much as I think you're going to, Kline).
If there's any hope in Kline it's that he was part of a Tennessee offense that was 6th in the NFL in rushing last season. How much he had to do with that, or whether he can pass protect ... I have no idea. But it's at least something.
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Re: Kirk Cousins: Baker or Chef?

Post by S197 »

dead_poet wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:53 pm
S197 wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:07 pmThe Vikings need to do better on 1st down especially. Too many runs for negative or 1 yard gains.
I feel like this has been an issue for 20 years.
If there's one thing I hope Kubiak brings, it's some semblance of a run game. Cousins throwing 50 times a game is not going to end well.
I'm marginally optimistic, as Kubiak 'N Friends have had pretty good rushing success where they go. With an improved offensive line (here's hoping for average!), a healthy Dalvin and Zimmer's commitment to the run, hopefully that translates into better rushing success (please don't suck as much as I think you're going to, Kline).
I'm optimistic on Kubiak as well, he's certainly done more with less talent in Denver.
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