Dillon Mitchell was blackballed

A forum for the hard core Minnesota Vikings fan. Discuss upcoming games, opponents, trades, draft or what ever is on the minds of Viking fans!

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
VikingsVictorious
Hall of Fame Inductee
Posts: 4011
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 723

Re: Dillon Mitchell was blackballed

Post by VikingsVictorious »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon May 13, 2019 7:36 pm
YikesVikes wrote: Mon May 13, 2019 5:25 pm Advisory boards mess up all the time. This isnt unusual.
His size/speed and production certainly warranted a third round draft grade possibly a second. Some people have vendettas. Others don't really do the research. I will tell you that I do have one red flag on Mitchell. Akili Smith a former Oregon QB and generally considered nice guy asked Herbert the current Oregon QB in a Tweet if he thought Mitchell would be back and said he thought Mitchell was a first round talent. Mitchell went off on Smith calling him a fake, a snake and a slime. There might be some history there, and maybe Mitchell was having a bad day, but he has to be more diplomatic than that.
Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9241
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 1117

Re: Dillon Mitchell was blackballed

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon May 13, 2019 7:42 am
PacificNorseWest wrote: Mon May 13, 2019 3:00 am Well, if Penny Hardaway said the Vikes got a steal, it's gotta be right!


Really though...all I know is Mitchell torched the UW Huskies and as it currently stands, UW is DBU. Been churning out NFL starting caliber DB's left and right and this last seasons crop is no different and might end up with having the best individuals yet (Rapp & Byron Murphy specifically), so take that for what it's worth.
Thanks for this. I was unaware of the quality of the UW DBs. Mitchell had 14 receptions I believe for 229 yards against them and seemed to be wide open on every play.
Wow :shock: that’s a monster game
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9241
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 1117

Re: Dillon Mitchell was blackballed

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

StumpHunter wrote: Mon May 13, 2019 11:05 am Having coached youth and HS sports for years, I don't believe a thing a parent of an athlete says about why their son has a bad reputation. 99 out of 100 times if a player has a reputation, they have earned that reputation, and 99 out of 100 times their Dad will have some excuse for their kid.
Couldn’t agree more stump. Here’s a few good ones. Listen to this stump (and others), I’ve coached varsity lacrosse and modified football for 6 years. I no longer coach either because of the parents. I removed myself from it because it was no longer enjoyable for me. And I don’t miss it one bit. My father was my coach until the day I graduated high school and all I wanted to do was be like him when I got older. I quickly took over the varsity lacrosse program at the school I teach at and I resigned from both lacrosse and football within 6 years. I’m coaching my step sons kindergarten lacrosse team now but that will be the extent of it. We have a boy on the way so maybe I’ll get back into it down the road but I’ve never been so bitter about something in my life.

My father became my assistant when I took over the varsity program which was awesome. I took our schools lacrosse program from the gutter (consistent 2-15 seasons before I got there) and completely turned them around within 2 years and got them to the sectional playoffs for the first time in 14 years with a 9-8 record. The following few years I went through hell and back.

I had a parent attempting to file a lawsuit against my father and I for “bullying and targeting” their son because we kicked him off the team for multiple run-ins with coaches, players, suspensions, etc. Now granted both my father and I are old school coaches but never was it even close to what they were claiming. It was simply discipline and we handled it exactly how anyone else would have. Long story short, the kid was so disrespectful that one day after offseason workouts (it was the Friday before spring break), I told the kids practice was done and they could head out. He stayed behind. I told him he was free to head home and he said no I’m staying to play basketball in the gym. I said, no you’re not. There is no supervision and everything is locked up. He got ticked off and went outside and did donuts around my vehicle in the parking lot and smiling out his window at me while he’s doing it.....yeah. No less his father was the varsity baseball coach at our school. However, you wanna know why he never followed through with his lawsuit against us? He was arrested for choking out one of his baseball players before a game. No this is not a joke. He was obviously fired after that as well. ........But I was the one “bullying” kids :lol: It was all over the news and even landed on deadspin. Check it out.....

https://www.google.com/amp/s/deadspin.c ... 277205/amp

As you can tell, this father was exactly what his mugshot portrayed. Arrogant, thought he was a tough guy, did no wrong, kids did no wrong, etc. I legit couldn’t stand the guy

I also received threats on Facebook from a different father a year later because I kicked his kid off the team for a slew of valid reasons. The state troopers ended up getting involved with these social media threats. I didn’t bother pressing charges because the guy was an idiot but it was a big deal at our school. He said that he had 3000 rounds of armor piercing ammunition ready to go and that “it was on”. Along with plenty of other stuff. I still have the screen shots on my phone. It was absolutely out of control.

And these were just a few of many ridiculous stories that I have from coaching. And I’ve coached some unbelievable kids with unbelievable parents. I still communicate with a lot of the kids 3+ years later. The same with some of the parents. But now do you see why I have no desire to coach? Because that’s what I’ve had to deal with during my time. It was no longer enjoyable for me anymore and it makes me sick. I’ve always wanted to coach my whole life and was obsessed with it when I first started because of who my father was around here, the connection I developed with players, getting kids into college for lacrosse, etc. Now, I could give 2 craps if I ever coached again. It’s really sad how these kids and parents are these days. It’s a fricken joke if you ask me. Never will I ever be that type of parent. And I’ll make damn sure my step son and soon to be born son will never act like some of these kids do now or be like some of these parents later in life.

Sorry for the long post, just figured from a coach to coach standpoint you’d enjoy the read
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
User avatar
VikingsVictorious
Hall of Fame Inductee
Posts: 4011
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 723

Re: Dillon Mitchell was blackballed

Post by VikingsVictorious »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 10:11 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Mon May 13, 2019 11:05 am Having coached youth and HS sports for years, I don't believe a thing a parent of an athlete says about why their son has a bad reputation. 99 out of 100 times if a player has a reputation, they have earned that reputation, and 99 out of 100 times their Dad will have some excuse for their kid.
Couldn’t agree more stump. Here’s a few good ones. Listen to this stump (and others), I’ve coached varsity lacrosse and modified football for 6 years. I no longer coach either because of the parents. I removed myself from it because it was no longer enjoyable for me. And I don’t miss it one bit. My father was my coach until the day I graduated high school and all I wanted to do was be like him when I got older. I quickly took over the varsity lacrosse program at the school I teach at and I resigned from both lacrosse and football within 6 years. I’m coaching my step sons kindergarten lacrosse team now but that will be the extent of it. We have a boy on the way so maybe I’ll get back into it down the road but I’ve never been so bitter about something in my life.

My father became my assistant when I took over the varsity program which was awesome. I took our schools lacrosse program from the gutter (consistent 2-15 seasons before I got there) and completely turned them around within 2 years and got them to the sectional playoffs for the first time in 14 years with a 9-8 record. The following few years I went through hell and back.

I had a parent attempting to file a lawsuit against my father and I for “bullying and targeting” their son because we kicked him off the team for multiple run-ins with coaches, players, suspensions, etc. Now granted both my father and I are old school coaches but never was it even close to what they were claiming. It was simply discipline and we handled it exactly how anyone else would have. Long story short, the kid was so disrespectful that one day after offseason workouts (it was the Friday before spring break), I told the kids practice was done and they could head out. He stayed behind. I told him he was free to head home and he said no I’m staying to play basketball in the gym. I said, no you’re not. There is no supervision and everything is locked up. He got ticked off and went outside and did donuts around my vehicle in the parking lot and smiling out his window at me while he’s doing it.....yeah. No less his father was the varsity baseball coach at our school. However, you wanna know why he never followed through with his lawsuit against us? He was arrested for choking out one of his baseball players before a game. No this is not a joke. He was obviously fired after that as well. ........But I was the one “bullying” kids :lol: It was all over the news and even landed on deadspin. Check it out.....

https://www.google.com/amp/s/deadspin.c ... 277205/amp

As you can tell, this father was exactly what his mugshot portrayed. Arrogant, thought he was a tough guy, did no wrong, kids did no wrong, etc. I legit couldn’t stand the guy

I also received threats on Facebook from a different father a year later because I kicked his kid off the team for a slew of valid reasons. The state troopers ended up getting involved with these social media threats. I didn’t bother pressing charges because the guy was an idiot but it was a big deal at our school. He said that he had 3000 rounds of armor piercing ammunition ready to go and that “it was on”. Along with plenty of other stuff. I still have the screen shots on my phone. It was absolutely out of control.

And these were just a few of many ridiculous stories that I have from coaching. And I’ve coached some unbelievable kids with unbelievable parents. I still communicate with a lot of the kids 3+ years later. The same with some of the parents. But now do you see why I have no desire to coach? Because that’s what I’ve had to deal with during my time. It was no longer enjoyable for me anymore and it makes me sick. I’ve always wanted to coach my whole life and was obsessed with it when I first started because of who my father was around here, the connection I developed with players, getting kids into college for lacrosse, etc. Now, I could give 2 craps if I ever coached again. It’s really sad how these kids and parents are these days. It’s a fricken joke if you ask me. Never will I ever be that type of parent. And I’ll make damn sure my step son and soon to be born son will never act like some of these kids do now or be like some of these parents later in life.

Sorry for the long post, just figured from a coach to coach standpoint you’d enjoy the read
I'm sorry you had some bad experiences, but that doesn't mean Mitchell's father is an a hole or lying. I give the benefit of the doubt until I have a reason not to.
S197
Fenrir
Posts: 12790
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:28 pm
Location: Hawaii
x 662

Re: Dillon Mitchell was blackballed

Post by S197 »

No name was given but it was an NFC west coast scout. Apparently it wasn't just the interviews, it also showed up on tape where he was inconsistent and also inexplicably benched for entire drives.

I think it's an accurate portrayal and I put zero weight in what anyone's parent says (Rhett Ellison anyone?). But we can only speculate. He clearly has the ability and has the opportunity to grow up. It's a good pick in the 7th. For our sakes I hope he was blackballed but it seems unlikely to me. Maybe he'll turn that draft snub into motivation.
Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9241
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 1117

Re: Dillon Mitchell was blackballed

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 11:23 pm [

I'm sorry you had some bad experiences, but that doesn't mean Mitchell's father is an a hole or lying. I give the benefit of the doubt until I have a reason not to.
No I’m not saying this really has anything to do with Mitchell. That post was directed more towards the general perception of how parents can be when it comes to their kids
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
User avatar
VikingsVictorious
Hall of Fame Inductee
Posts: 4011
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 723

Re: Dillon Mitchell was blackballed

Post by VikingsVictorious »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 5:35 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 11:23 pm [

I'm sorry you had some bad experiences, but that doesn't mean Mitchell's father is an a hole or lying. I give the benefit of the doubt until I have a reason not to.
No I’m not saying this really has anything to do with Mitchell. That post was directed more towards the general perception of how parents can be when it comes to their kids
Too many parents try to live through their children. Love them and be proud of them, but don't use them to validate yourself.
Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9241
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 1117

Re: Dillon Mitchell was blackballed

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 8:31 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 5:35 am

No I’m not saying this really has anything to do with Mitchell. That post was directed more towards the general perception of how parents can be when it comes to their kids
Too many parents try to live through their children. Love them and be proud of them, but don't use them to validate yourself.
Exactly I feel bad for Lonzo Ball. His father ruined that kids career before it even started.
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
fiestavike
Hall of Fame Inductee
Posts: 4958
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:03 am
x 395

Re: Dillon Mitchell was blackballed

Post by fiestavike »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 10:17 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 8:31 am
Too many parents try to live through their children. Love them and be proud of them, but don't use them to validate yourself.
Exactly I feel bad for Lonzo Ball. His father ruined that kids career before it even started.
Agree. That dad is a disgrace. Its very sad.
"You like that!"
-- Cap'n Spazz Cousins
J. Kapp 11
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9771
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
x 1857

Re: Dillon Mitchell was blackballed

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 10:11 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Mon May 13, 2019 11:05 am Having coached youth and HS sports for years, I don't believe a thing a parent of an athlete says about why their son has a bad reputation. 99 out of 100 times if a player has a reputation, they have earned that reputation, and 99 out of 100 times their Dad will have some excuse for their kid.
Couldn’t agree more stump. Here’s a few good ones. Listen to this stump (and others), I’ve coached varsity lacrosse and modified football for 6 years. I no longer coach either because of the parents. I removed myself from it because it was no longer enjoyable for me. And I don’t miss it one bit. My father was my coach until the day I graduated high school and all I wanted to do was be like him when I got older. I quickly took over the varsity lacrosse program at the school I teach at and I resigned from both lacrosse and football within 6 years. I’m coaching my step sons kindergarten lacrosse team now but that will be the extent of it. We have a boy on the way so maybe I’ll get back into it down the road but I’ve never been so bitter about something in my life.

My father became my assistant when I took over the varsity program which was awesome. I took our schools lacrosse program from the gutter (consistent 2-15 seasons before I got there) and completely turned them around within 2 years and got them to the sectional playoffs for the first time in 14 years with a 9-8 record. The following few years I went through hell and back.

I had a parent attempting to file a lawsuit against my father and I for “bullying and targeting” their son because we kicked him off the team for multiple run-ins with coaches, players, suspensions, etc. Now granted both my father and I are old school coaches but never was it even close to what they were claiming. It was simply discipline and we handled it exactly how anyone else would have. Long story short, the kid was so disrespectful that one day after offseason workouts (it was the Friday before spring break), I told the kids practice was done and they could head out. He stayed behind. I told him he was free to head home and he said no I’m staying to play basketball in the gym. I said, no you’re not. There is no supervision and everything is locked up. He got ticked off and went outside and did donuts around my vehicle in the parking lot and smiling out his window at me while he’s doing it.....yeah. No less his father was the varsity baseball coach at our school. However, you wanna know why he never followed through with his lawsuit against us? He was arrested for choking out one of his baseball players before a game. No this is not a joke. He was obviously fired after that as well. ........But I was the one “bullying” kids :lol: It was all over the news and even landed on deadspin. Check it out.....

https://www.google.com/amp/s/deadspin.c ... 277205/amp

As you can tell, this father was exactly what his mugshot portrayed. Arrogant, thought he was a tough guy, did no wrong, kids did no wrong, etc. I legit couldn’t stand the guy

I also received threats on Facebook from a different father a year later because I kicked his kid off the team for a slew of valid reasons. The state troopers ended up getting involved with these social media threats. I didn’t bother pressing charges because the guy was an idiot but it was a big deal at our school. He said that he had 3000 rounds of armor piercing ammunition ready to go and that “it was on”. Along with plenty of other stuff. I still have the screen shots on my phone. It was absolutely out of control.

And these were just a few of many ridiculous stories that I have from coaching. And I’ve coached some unbelievable kids with unbelievable parents. I still communicate with a lot of the kids 3+ years later. The same with some of the parents. But now do you see why I have no desire to coach? Because that’s what I’ve had to deal with during my time. It was no longer enjoyable for me anymore and it makes me sick. I’ve always wanted to coach my whole life and was obsessed with it when I first started because of who my father was around here, the connection I developed with players, getting kids into college for lacrosse, etc. Now, I could give 2 craps if I ever coached again. It’s really sad how these kids and parents are these days. It’s a fricken joke if you ask me. Never will I ever be that type of parent. And I’ll make damn sure my step son and soon to be born son will never act like some of these kids do now or be like some of these parents later in life.

Sorry for the long post, just figured from a coach to coach standpoint you’d enjoy the read
With all due respect, is that any reason to not take a man at his word?

I don't think we should automatically dismiss the father's claims simply because it was a "sports dad" who made them. You seem to be making that assertion based on your own experiences as a coach. Logically, that's flawed. It's an egocentric fallacy; that is, applying your own experiences to everyone else. In analytics, it would be like taking a sample size of one and calling the outcome probable for every other instance.

I'm not discounting your experiences, PHP. I believe every word you've said, and you know I respect your opinion. But aren't there also GOOD parents? How do you know Mitchell's dad is a bad dude or an unruly parent?

I was a good parent. At least I always thought so. My son was a really good baseball player, ranked in the top 50 in South Carolina when he was a freshman in high school. When he was 12, I was approached after an all-star tournament game by coaches from Clemson, South Carolina and the College of Charleston. He was TWELVE! Then we moved to Iowa, and I enrolled him at my alma mater. Crazy enough, his high-school coach wouldn't even look at him for varsity as a sophomore, even though he had lettered and excelled as a freshman in SC against far stiffer competition. Then, as if that weren't bad enough, he was left off varsity after spring practice in his JUNIOR year, even though he had hit .450 for the sophomore team. The truly wild thing was that the varsity needed bats. They had finished in last place and averaged about 2 runs per game the previous season.

So after practice one day, I stopped the coach in the parking lot and had a polite, respectful conversation with him, asking him why he was leaving my son off varsity. He said, "He's not a very good defensive player." I said, "Fair enough. But your team needs hitters, and he's your best. Couldn't you make him the DH?" The coach then gave the most ridiculous answer I'd ever heard: "I don't believe in the DH." Should have known he was a college pitcher who never got to hit. My response was, "Well, the other 17 teams in the league believe in the DH, so maybe that's why we finished in last place." Again, a very calm, measured conversation and tone. Eventually the coach relented and put my son on the varsity, but he gave him very few opportunities. -- just 44 plate appearances in 40 games. Yet he hit .385 and finished 3rd in the league with 7 home runs.

My question is simple: Was I a bad parent because I spoke up?

Apparently the coach thought so. A couple years later, a friend of mine at church (the coach attended that church, too) told me that he had overheard the coach speaking of me in the same way you speak of the unruly parent. And he did this even though I never said another word to the coach about my son's playing time.

Again, I believe you completely, PHP. Every word. But we all view things through the lens of our own lives.

With that in mind, it seems appropriate to let the facts come to light. We shouldn't just take Mitchell's dad at his word, but we also shouldn't just take the critics at theirs. None of us knows whether Mitchell's reputation is deserved. Maybe we ought to let the facts play out, as well as the young man's career. And heck, even if his reputation was deserved, a certain Hall-of-Famer who wore 84 for the Vikings also had a troubled history as a collegian. People can change, especially if they get in the right situation and rub shoulders with good people.
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.
User avatar
VikingLord
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8227
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow
x 930

Re: Dillon Mitchell was blackballed

Post by VikingLord »

Well, from what I read we don't have to take just the father's word. Apparently, the head coach verified it was false information. So that is 2 people close to Mitchell saying it's false, both of whom should have at least some idea what they are talking about.

But even if it is true, if I'm considering this kid in the 7th round, I'm looking at his potential more than anything at that point in the draft. So what if he screwed up in college? Lots of young guys say and do things their older, more mature selves would cringe at in retrospect. The question isn't what he's done, but what he's learned, is he willing to work hard to improve, and where can those two things take him as a man and a professional athlete?

Not to say there aren't things that should disqualify someone from consideration. There certainly are. But I like the pick and I like it that the kid is going to get a chance to show what he can do and redeem his reputation as well. He can show everyone what he's capable of both on and off the field if he decides to make it happen.

If he does (once again, regardless of the truth behind the allegations at this point), he can join a long list of "troubled" young men who enjoyed success as pro football players and in life. I think anyone who has ever screwed up, young or not, deserves that chance.
Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9241
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 1117

Re: Dillon Mitchell was blackballed

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 8:13 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 10:11 pm

Couldn’t agree more stump. Here’s a few good ones. Listen to this stump (and others), I’ve coached varsity lacrosse and modified football for 6 years. I no longer coach either because of the parents. I removed myself from it because it was no longer enjoyable for me. And I don’t miss it one bit. My father was my coach until the day I graduated high school and all I wanted to do was be like him when I got older. I quickly took over the varsity lacrosse program at the school I teach at and I resigned from both lacrosse and football within 6 years. I’m coaching my step sons kindergarten lacrosse team now but that will be the extent of it. We have a boy on the way so maybe I’ll get back into it down the road but I’ve never been so bitter about something in my life.

My father became my assistant when I took over the varsity program which was awesome. I took our schools lacrosse program from the gutter (consistent 2-15 seasons before I got there) and completely turned them around within 2 years and got them to the sectional playoffs for the first time in 14 years with a 9-8 record. The following few years I went through hell and back.

I had a parent attempting to file a lawsuit against my father and I for “bullying and targeting” their son because we kicked him off the team for multiple run-ins with coaches, players, suspensions, etc. Now granted both my father and I are old school coaches but never was it even close to what they were claiming. It was simply discipline and we handled it exactly how anyone else would have. Long story short, the kid was so disrespectful that one day after offseason workouts (it was the Friday before spring break), I told the kids practice was done and they could head out. He stayed behind. I told him he was free to head home and he said no I’m staying to play basketball in the gym. I said, no you’re not. There is no supervision and everything is locked up. He got ticked off and went outside and did donuts around my vehicle in the parking lot and smiling out his window at me while he’s doing it.....yeah. No less his father was the varsity baseball coach at our school. However, you wanna know why he never followed through with his lawsuit against us? He was arrested for choking out one of his baseball players before a game. No this is not a joke. He was obviously fired after that as well. ........But I was the one “bullying” kids :lol: It was all over the news and even landed on deadspin. Check it out.....

https://www.google.com/amp/s/deadspin.c ... 277205/amp

As you can tell, this father was exactly what his mugshot portrayed. Arrogant, thought he was a tough guy, did no wrong, kids did no wrong, etc. I legit couldn’t stand the guy

I also received threats on Facebook from a different father a year later because I kicked his kid off the team for a slew of valid reasons. The state troopers ended up getting involved with these social media threats. I didn’t bother pressing charges because the guy was an idiot but it was a big deal at our school. He said that he had 3000 rounds of armor piercing ammunition ready to go and that “it was on”. Along with plenty of other stuff. I still have the screen shots on my phone. It was absolutely out of control.

And these were just a few of many ridiculous stories that I have from coaching. And I’ve coached some unbelievable kids with unbelievable parents. I still communicate with a lot of the kids 3+ years later. The same with some of the parents. But now do you see why I have no desire to coach? Because that’s what I’ve had to deal with during my time. It was no longer enjoyable for me anymore and it makes me sick. I’ve always wanted to coach my whole life and was obsessed with it when I first started because of who my father was around here, the connection I developed with players, getting kids into college for lacrosse, etc. Now, I could give 2 craps if I ever coached again. It’s really sad how these kids and parents are these days. It’s a fricken joke if you ask me. Never will I ever be that type of parent. And I’ll make damn sure my step son and soon to be born son will never act like some of these kids do now or be like some of these parents later in life.

Sorry for the long post, just figured from a coach to coach standpoint you’d enjoy the read
With all due respect, is that any reason to not take a man at his word?

I don't think we should automatically dismiss the father's claims simply because it was a "sports dad" who made them. You seem to be making that assertion based on your own experiences as a coach. Logically, that's flawed. It's an egocentric fallacy; that is, applying your own experiences to everyone else. In analytics, it would be like taking a sample size of one and calling the outcome probable for every other instance.

I'm not discounting your experiences, PHP. I believe every word you've said, and you know I respect your opinion. But aren't there also GOOD parents? How do you know Mitchell's dad is a bad dude or an unruly parent?

I was a good parent. At least I always thought so. My son was a really good baseball player, ranked in the top 50 in South Carolina when he was a freshman in high school. When he was 12, I was approached after an all-star tournament game by coaches from Clemson, South Carolina and the College of Charleston. He was TWELVE! Then we moved to Iowa, and I enrolled him at my alma mater. Crazy enough, his high-school coach wouldn't even look at him for varsity as a sophomore, even though he had lettered and excelled as a freshman in SC against far stiffer competition. Then, as if that weren't bad enough, he was left off varsity after spring practice in his JUNIOR year, even though he had hit .450 for the sophomore team. The truly wild thing was that the varsity needed bats. They had finished in last place and averaged about 2 runs per game the previous season.

So after practice one day, I stopped the coach in the parking lot and had a polite, respectful conversation with him, asking him why he was leaving my son off varsity. He said, "He's not a very good defensive player." I said, "Fair enough. But your team needs hitters, and he's your best. Couldn't you make him the DH?" The coach then gave the most ridiculous answer I'd ever heard: "I don't believe in the DH." Should have known he was a college pitcher who never got to hit. My response was, "Well, the other 17 teams in the league believe in the DH, so maybe that's why we finished in last place." Again, a very calm, measured conversation and tone. Eventually the coach relented and put my son on the varsity, but he gave him very few opportunities. -- just 44 plate appearances in 40 games. Yet he hit .385 and finished 3rd in the league with 7 home runs.

My question is simple: Was I a bad parent because I spoke up?

Apparently the coach thought so. A couple years later, a friend of mine at church (the coach attended that church, too) told me that he had overheard the coach speaking of me in the same way you speak of the unruly parent. And he did this even though I never said another word to the coach about my son's playing time.

Again, I believe you completely, PHP. Every word. But we all view things through the lens of our own lives.

With that in mind, it seems appropriate to let the facts come to light. We shouldn't just take Mitchell's dad at his word, but we also shouldn't just take the critics at theirs. None of us knows whether Mitchell's reputation is deserved. Maybe we ought to let the facts play out, as well as the young man's career. And heck, even if his reputation was deserved, a certain Hall-of-Famer who wore 84 for the Vikings also had a troubled history as a collegian. People can change, especially if they get in the right situation and rub shoulders with good people.
Oh listen Kapp I agree 100% with what you're saying. I was just telling my story to tell it. I agree with stump that parents can be out of control but I dont necessarily believe that was the case with Mitchells father. As for your DH story, yeah I mean if you're a parent and you have a productive, calm conversation with a coach, there is nothing wrong with that at all. And I think you were right with what you did. That's a pretty ridiculous answer by him and clearly that varsity team needed help. But I will say coaches dont like to be questioned either. No different than me being a teacher. That would be like a parent coming up to me questioning how I teach my special ed students when they have never been a teacher in their life. I'm just trying to play both sides here. Because I've been on both sides with my step son and then as a varsity lacrosse coach.

You always want whats best for your kids and if you believe its one thing and a coach believes its another, it's very tough on you as a parent. But then as a coach, I know that I never intentionally targeted kids, never intentionally screwed kids over, etc. Some parents (the two I listed above) didnt believe that. They thought I was singling out their kids which was far from the case. Yeah the both kids were disrespectful punks but I treated them just like I treated my high character players. When you didnt follow directions or when you made a mistake, I got on you. That's how I was raised and that's how my father was. And he is one of the most well respected coaches in the area. I've had plenty of players over a 6 year span call me, text me, write letters to me thanking me for pushing them and making them the best player they could be and making them a better man. I have others like the kids above that probably hated my guts. It comes with coaching, I get that. But the main root is the parents. Both kids were disrespectful punk that gave attitude, were lazy, played when they felt like it, etc. And then when they cross the line after multiple chances and you boot them off the team, the parents act out and the parents show you where their kids got it from. It's not often where you have a disrespectful, troubled kid with great parents. There are 3 types from what I've seen. 1.) Great kids with great parents (even if the kids give a little attitude here and there, the parents still 100% have your back when you want to discipline them) 2.)Great kids with crazy parents (Lonzo Ball/Lavar Ball) 3.) Troubled kids with crazy parents.

I mean in the end, there is nothing wrong with questioning a coach if you think something is wrong. And the best way to do it is how you approached your sons coach. But how my parents approached things, was obviously overboard. And in the end, it drove me away from something I use to love. I could have bucked up and pushed through it. But it started to effect me, my family, my job, etc. It's not fun being on the phone with the state troopers wondering if some backwoods idiot is going to bust down my door with guns blazing. It's not fun knowing some nut job parent is coming after you and your father with a lawsuit because his son was a disrespectful punk with multiple strikes.

Another good one was the varsity football coach here (who I worked under at the time, I was the 7th/8th grade football coach) cornered me and questioned me because I wouldnt move his son up to JV lacrosse. Now just to give you a quick background story, this coach won a state championship in 2014. Ever since then, his head got huge, everyone in this district bows down to him and he's probably the most arrogant person I've ever met. That parent/baseball coach I posted the article about above that tried to file a lawsuit against me, was this guys defensive coordinator. So two arrogant people on the same staff. His son was in 7th grade and would have been on the modified team with 7th and 8th graders. He wanted me to move him up to JV to play with 9th and 10th graders. Now his kid was a good player dont get me wrong but he was very undersized. 1.) I simply didnt think he was ready and 2.) When building a program from the ground up, you need to have balance and consistency on all 3 levels. I dont want a 15-0 JV team but an 0-10 modified team. That doesnt help our program. So I told him he wasnt going up for those reasons. I even added in that he would definitely go up to JV as an 8th grader but just not as a 7th grader. Wasnt ready physically and losing him on our modified team would have killed them. He then questioned me up and down, threw his football record in my face and then of course threw the state championship in my face and then said, "you think I dont know how to build a program?" When the guy has NEVER coached lacrosse in his life. This sport takes so much more practice and skill than the sport of football does. You cant just pick up a lacrosse stick and be successful, good athlete or not. You can pick up a football and be a good RB or be a good offensive lineman. Especially when your school gets kids off the military base on a regular basis. These kids grew up playing football down south. They dont have a clue what lacrosse is.. But since he had success in football and everyone around here kissed his a##, he thought he was entitled. And I was probably one of the only people in this district that ever told him no and he didnt like it. But I stuck to my guns. I'm not an a## kisser and I never will be. I honestly cant stand people that are. I dont care what the guy have done in his life, you're not going to tell me how to do my job.

Sorry about these long stories. I get so fired up when typing them out that I just keep going haha. But either way, all this doesnt mean Mitchell's dad was wrong or whatever. I was just telling my own stories is all
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
StumpHunter
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3668
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 639

Re: Dillon Mitchell was blackballed

Post by StumpHunter »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 8:13 pm
With all due respect, is that any reason to not take a man at his word?

I don't think we should automatically dismiss the father's claims simply because it was a "sports dad" who made them. You seem to be making that assertion based on your own experiences as a coach. Logically, that's flawed. It's an egocentric fallacy; that is, applying your own experiences to everyone else. In analytics, it would be like taking a sample size of one and calling the outcome probable for every other instance.

I'm not discounting your experiences, PHP. I believe every word you've said, and you know I respect your opinion. But aren't there also GOOD parents? How do you know Mitchell's dad is a bad dude or an unruly parent?

I was a good parent. At least I always thought so. My son was a really good baseball player, ranked in the top 50 in South Carolina when he was a freshman in high school. When he was 12, I was approached after an all-star tournament game by coaches from Clemson, South Carolina and the College of Charleston. He was TWELVE! Then we moved to Iowa, and I enrolled him at my alma mater. Crazy enough, his high-school coach wouldn't even look at him for varsity as a sophomore, even though he had lettered and excelled as a freshman in SC against far stiffer competition. Then, as if that weren't bad enough, he was left off varsity after spring practice in his JUNIOR year, even though he had hit .450 for the sophomore team. The truly wild thing was that the varsity needed bats. They had finished in last place and averaged about 2 runs per game the previous season.

So after practice one day, I stopped the coach in the parking lot and had a polite, respectful conversation with him, asking him why he was leaving my son off varsity. He said, "He's not a very good defensive player." I said, "Fair enough. But your team needs hitters, and he's your best. Couldn't you make him the DH?" The coach then gave the most ridiculous answer I'd ever heard: "I don't believe in the DH." Should have known he was a college pitcher who never got to hit. My response was, "Well, the other 17 teams in the league believe in the DH, so maybe that's why we finished in last place." Again, a very calm, measured conversation and tone. Eventually the coach relented and put my son on the varsity, but he gave him very few opportunities. -- just 44 plate appearances in 40 games. Yet he hit .385 and finished 3rd in the league with 7 home runs.

My question is simple: Was I a bad parent because I spoke up?

Apparently the coach thought so. A couple years later, a friend of mine at church (the coach attended that church, too) told me that he had overheard the coach speaking of me in the same way you speak of the unruly parent. And he did this even though I never said another word to the coach about my son's playing time.

Again, I believe you completely, PHP. Every word. But we all view things through the lens of our own lives.

With that in mind, it seems appropriate to let the facts come to light. We shouldn't just take Mitchell's dad at his word, but we also shouldn't just take the critics at theirs. None of us knows whether Mitchell's reputation is deserved. Maybe we ought to let the facts play out, as well as the young man's career. And heck, even if his reputation was deserved, a certain Hall-of-Famer who wore 84 for the Vikings also had a troubled history as a collegian. People can change, especially if they get in the right situation and rub shoulders with good people.
It sounds to me like your son’s coach was extremely hard headed and set in his ways. I also believe he was wrong for saying anything negative about how you approached him. You were right and he was wrong, and he didn't like that.

However, I would strongly recommend any parents with players in High School sports to never approach a coach about playing time or moving a player up to a higher level. It will 9 times out of 10 not go well for you, no matter how right you are.

What does work 9 times out of 10, is the player approaching a coach and telling him he deserves a shot. I actually coach lacrosse myself like PHP, and I can tell you right now that if a player asked me if they could get a chance at man down or man up, because they have worked really hard and believe they can contribute, I would get them on a man down or man up. If a parent asked to put their kid on it, I can guarantee it wouldn’t happen.

If your player is shy or afraid to approach their coach, what an awesome life lesson for them to learn how to approach their superior to ask for something that they want. If your player arrogant and too proud to ask, again, great life lesson.

I actually ended up starting on varsity because in our evals of the previous season I pointed out I lead my team in goals, something the coach had no idea that I did. If my Dad had told my coach that I lead the team in goals, there is likely no way I end up starting. That lesson has helped me a lot in life, teaching me that when I do something better than my peers, it might be a good idea to point that out to management, because they do not see everything going on.
Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9241
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 1117

Re: Dillon Mitchell was blackballed

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

StumpHunter wrote: Thu May 16, 2019 9:17 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 8:13 pm
With all due respect, is that any reason to not take a man at his word?

I don't think we should automatically dismiss the father's claims simply because it was a "sports dad" who made them. You seem to be making that assertion based on your own experiences as a coach. Logically, that's flawed. It's an egocentric fallacy; that is, applying your own experiences to everyone else. In analytics, it would be like taking a sample size of one and calling the outcome probable for every other instance.

I'm not discounting your experiences, PHP. I believe every word you've said, and you know I respect your opinion. But aren't there also GOOD parents? How do you know Mitchell's dad is a bad dude or an unruly parent?

I was a good parent. At least I always thought so. My son was a really good baseball player, ranked in the top 50 in South Carolina when he was a freshman in high school. When he was 12, I was approached after an all-star tournament game by coaches from Clemson, South Carolina and the College of Charleston. He was TWELVE! Then we moved to Iowa, and I enrolled him at my alma mater. Crazy enough, his high-school coach wouldn't even look at him for varsity as a sophomore, even though he had lettered and excelled as a freshman in SC against far stiffer competition. Then, as if that weren't bad enough, he was left off varsity after spring practice in his JUNIOR year, even though he had hit .450 for the sophomore team. The truly wild thing was that the varsity needed bats. They had finished in last place and averaged about 2 runs per game the previous season.

So after practice one day, I stopped the coach in the parking lot and had a polite, respectful conversation with him, asking him why he was leaving my son off varsity. He said, "He's not a very good defensive player." I said, "Fair enough. But your team needs hitters, and he's your best. Couldn't you make him the DH?" The coach then gave the most ridiculous answer I'd ever heard: "I don't believe in the DH." Should have known he was a college pitcher who never got to hit. My response was, "Well, the other 17 teams in the league believe in the DH, so maybe that's why we finished in last place." Again, a very calm, measured conversation and tone. Eventually the coach relented and put my son on the varsity, but he gave him very few opportunities. -- just 44 plate appearances in 40 games. Yet he hit .385 and finished 3rd in the league with 7 home runs.

My question is simple: Was I a bad parent because I spoke up?

Apparently the coach thought so. A couple years later, a friend of mine at church (the coach attended that church, too) told me that he had overheard the coach speaking of me in the same way you speak of the unruly parent. And he did this even though I never said another word to the coach about my son's playing time.

Again, I believe you completely, PHP. Every word. But we all view things through the lens of our own lives.

With that in mind, it seems appropriate to let the facts come to light. We shouldn't just take Mitchell's dad at his word, but we also shouldn't just take the critics at theirs. None of us knows whether Mitchell's reputation is deserved. Maybe we ought to let the facts play out, as well as the young man's career. And heck, even if his reputation was deserved, a certain Hall-of-Famer who wore 84 for the Vikings also had a troubled history as a collegian. People can change, especially if they get in the right situation and rub shoulders with good people.
It sounds to me like your son’s coach was extremely hard headed and set in his ways. I also believe he was wrong for saying anything negative about how you approached him. You were right and he was wrong, and he didn't like that.

However, I would strongly recommend any parents with players in High School sports to never approach a coach about playing time or moving a player up to a higher level. It will 9 times out of 10 not go well for you, no matter how right you are.

What does work 9 times out of 10, is the player approaching a coach and telling him he deserves a shot. I actually coach lacrosse myself like PHP, and I can tell you right now that if a player asked me if they could get a chance at man down or man up, because they have worked really hard and believe they can contribute, I would get them on a man down or man up. If a parent asked to put their kid on it, I can guarantee it wouldn’t happen.

If your player is shy or afraid to approach their coach, what an awesome life lesson for them to learn how to approach their superior to ask for something that they want. If your player arrogant and too proud to ask, again, great life lesson.

I actually ended up starting on varsity because in our evals of the previous season I pointed out I lead my team in goals, something the coach had no idea that I did. If my Dad had told my coach that I lead the team in goals, there is likely no way I end up starting. That lesson has helped me a lot in life, teaching me that when I do something better than my peers, it might be a good idea to point that out to management, because they do not see everything going on.
Nice to see a fellow lacrosse coach on here Stump! And yes I'm glad you mentioned this because that is something I also preached to my players were to speak up if you wanted a shot at man up/man down, LSM, or even middie, attack, whatever. Dont have your parents come to me. I was always more than approachable with my players and they knew they could come to me regarding anything. Others just like to run home to cry to mom or dad instead which usually causes a stir. My issues in coaching usually stemmed from my style of discipline. I was always a pretty good judge of talent and it helped even more having my father as my assistant. I hardly ever had parents come to me with a playing time issue. There were a few where the kids never picked up their stick in the offseason and then came back the following year and lost their spots. I had a few of those conversations in my day with parents. But again, that's not my problem if you arent picking up your stick outside of practice and games and in the offseason. I cant force you to do it. I ran summer leagues with my team, had them in multiple tournaments, etc but you know just as well as I do Stump, lacrosse takes time to learn. You cant just open up your closet and grab it for practice and instantly have better stick skills. I started playing lacrosse at age 6, played varsity as a sophomore on up and went to college and played 4 years and started 3. I'm 30 years old now and still playing in a mens league. I had my stick in my hand constantly. That was my choice. Kids now would rather have an Xbox controller or tablet in their hand instead. That goes back to the parents. There is a lack of dedication now from both parents and kids compared to what there was 10+ years ago. You might not be able to spot this with the naked eye but if you coach, it's clear as day.

We have had legendary coaches all around here get ran out of town because of parents and even partly the kids. There was a coach at Cazenovia HS in Syracuse, NY that was just fired 2 years ago. The year he was fired was his 12th year coaching. In those 12 years, he won FIVE sectional championships and TWO state championships. And he took that program from a below average program to an elite one. And was ran out by parents. He made the state final 4, FIVE times in a 6 year span. That is INSANE. His final season they went 7-11 and obviously parents were ticked, even though they still made it to the sectional semi final. But you're so ticked that you run one of the most successful coaches ever around here out the door? It's ridiculous. Here is the article if anyone cares to read it:

http://highschoolsports.syracuse.com/ne ... jim-longo/

What kills me in that article.....
Because it is considered a personnel issue, Byrnes would not be specific about why Longo wasn't offered a contract for 2018. High school coaching contracts are awarded on an annual basis and must be renewed each year.
That's an AD simply saving his a## from parent backlash. It later came out that it was indeed the parents that ran him out of town. Just crazy......


I will say though for anyone participating in this conversation or anyone that can relate to this conversation (even though it has absolutely zero to do with the Vikings lol), THIS article right here is a MUST-read. Ive read it probably 5+ times in the past few years at least. It relates so much to what I had to deal with and how it's happening all over. It was a survey done with a lot of Syracuse area coaches and guys I have coached against around here. It's an excellent article

http://highschoolsports.syracuse.com/ne ... een-worse/

And here is me in a nutshell in this article:
Coaches have playbooks full of war stories involving parents and how they’ve impacted their professions, their personal lives and the value of high school sports.
and I had a very good girls soccer coach quit and will probably never coach again because of attacks by parents.
“Coaches need to feel they’re supported,” Blackford said. “If you don’t feel like you’re supported and you have nowhere to turn, a lot of coaches step down.”
^What I did
Regarding AD's: “They’re afraid of parents,” Messere said. “They’re afraid of a lawsuit or the thought one was coming. When they freeze up, you’re done.”
^Our AD in a nutshell

Let me know what your thoughts are
Last edited by Pondering Her Percy on Thu May 16, 2019 11:05 am, edited 3 times in total.
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9241
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 1117

Re: Dillon Mitchell was blackballed

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

Here is a link to the actual survey the parents took based on that must-read article I posted

https://www.syracuse.com/sports/2016/09 ... crazy.html

Pretty crazy how lopsided the results are in this survey
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
Post Reply