Vikings 2019 Draft Class Review

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What (pre-determined) grade do you give this years draft?

A
8
19%
B
23
55%
C
9
21%
D
1
2%
F
1
2%
 
Total votes: 42

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Re: Vikings 2019 Draft Class Review

Post by VikingLord »

PsyDanny wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 1:52 pm
VikingLord wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 1:49 pm

Why is Stefanski the OC if Kubiak is really running the offense? Why wouldn't Zimmer just make Kubiak the OC and leave Stefanski where he was?

Stefanski has no business being an OC unless he got the job based on his own thoughts and ideas about offense. He's either going to get on the horse and take the reins or he's not, and if not, then Zimmer did everyone a disservice by making him the OC.

I'm excited about the influence and experience Kubiak can bring to the offense, but I really see him playing a secondary role and supporting Stefanski more than the other way around. If it is the other way around, then Zimmer should make Kubiak the OC and make it clear who is calling the shots.
Who are you saying should be what?
I'm saying Zimmer made Stefanski the OC, not Kubiak.
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Re: Vikings 2019 Draft Class Review

Post by Thaumaturgist »

VikingPaul73 wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 2:02 pm Reading what Kapp and others are writing about Kubiak’s offensives, run %, 2TE %, use of WR3 etc is actually getting me excited about Viking football again for the first time since the 2nd quarter of the NFCC game January 2018!!!

Especially with all of the defenses being built to stop pass pass pass with 4WR sets. If the Vikings really are a run first 2 TE team, it could present some huge matchup problems for A LOT of modern defenses

Oh well I’m sure this new found optimism will fade by early October :rofl:
Early October? You are an optimist :lol:
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Re: Vikings 2019 Draft Class Review

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Re: Vikings 2019 Draft Class Review

Post by PurpleMustReign »

I think Kubiak is teaching Zimmer how to run an offense. It sure seems like they have some hint of a direction now. We will see.
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Re: Vikings 2019 Draft Class Review

Post by fiestavike »

VikingLord wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 2:08 pm
PsyDanny wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 1:52 pm

Who are you saying should be what?
I'm saying Zimmer made Stefanski the OC, not Kubiak.
Essentially, Kubiak is the Head Coach of the Offense. Practicially, its a Zimmer/Kubiak partnership. Its a bit unconventional, but I think it can work really well.
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Re: Vikings 2019 Draft Class Review

Post by S197 »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 5:10 pm
fiestavike wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 4:50 pm

Well said, although I still hope to see David Morgan replace Kyle Rudolph.
Here's another Kubiak stat.

Over the same 20+ year period, WR3s averaged only 21 receptions in Kubiak offenses. That's 14 fewer than Laquon Treadwell caught last year.

This is not John DeFilippo's throw-every-down offense. Kubiak runs to set up the pass, and when he throws, it's to WR1, WR2, tight ends and backs. Don't get bent out of shape over WR3.
I recall a lot of "don't get bent out of shape" rhetoric when JDF was hired here too. Look at the Eagles offense, RPO will make up for OL deficiency, he's incredible at breaking down RedZone defenses, etc.

Granted Kubiak has a much more impressive body of work but I think fans have a right to be critical when they've voiced concerns and were pretty spot on about them in the past. It's not like they were unfounded.

Irv Smith may work out better than an AJ Brown or some other WR3. But I think it's close and we've passed on good WRs in the past in similar rounds that would have been great picks.
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Re: Vikings 2019 Draft Class Review

Post by VikingPaul73 »

fiestavike wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 5:50 pm
VikingLord wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 2:08 pm

I'm saying Zimmer made Stefanski the OC, not Kubiak.
Essentially, Kubiak is the Head Coach of the Offense. Practicially, its a Zimmer/Kubiak partnership. Its a bit unconventional, but I think it can work really well.
Great way to look at it
Zim is the HC of the D
Kubiak is the HC of the O
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Re: Vikings 2019 Draft Class Review

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

Texas Vike wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 9:42 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 4:01 pm Y'all arguing about #3 WRs ... you need to take a look at Gary Kubiak's history (and let's not kid ourselves -- Stefanski is the OC, but this will be Kubiak's offense).

Kubiak doesn't run a lot of 11 personnel (one back, one tight end, three receivers). He just doesn't. Look at the teams he's coached. In 20+ seasons as either a head coach or an OC, Kubiak's teams targed the tight end about 1/4th of the time. That is a fact. He uses a lot of 2 tight end sets, and with Irv Smith on board, he'll do that here. That's why Smith was drafted. It's the scouting report on him -- teams that run 2 TE sets will love the guy.

What does that do to the #3 WR? It diminishes the value of him. Doesn't make him irrelevant, but it diminished his value. It's inarguable, given Kubiak's history.

It also makes Kyle Rudolph less expendable, perhaps indispensable for 2019. Smith isn't ready to be the primary tight end in a 1 tight end set, and that's not what Kubiak runs a lot of, anyway.

This isn't what I think. It's not a statement of my opinion on how our offense should be run. It's just a factual analysis of Gary Kubiak's history as an offensive coach. You're going to see a lot of Rudy and Smith on the field, less of Treadwell or Beebe or whomever else the Vikings trot out there at #3 WR.

Not sure what's up with the board, but I get an internal error msg when I try to rep you, so I'll just say it here: this is the best post I've read on this board in the past few months and it sure explains what the Vikes did in this year's draft. There was a marked difference this year--more focus on offense and signs of a clear vision (finally!) on what kinds of players make sense for the offense we intend to run. This is what we started to see in the drafts on the defense after hiring Zimmer; Now we're finally seeing a logical, comprehensive plan taking shape on O and it's exciting.
Thank you.

Here's what prompted me to start looking into this. The draft, on its face value, didn't make sense to me. Obviously Garrett Bradbury made sense, but nothing else did. I'd seen that Irv Smith was basically a first-round talent at TE. I was wondering if the Vikings might take Noah Fant if he was available (he was) but they passed in favor of Bradbury, so I thought maybe tight end wasn't a position of concern because I figured Smith would be gone by the time the Vikings picked in Round 2. But he was still available, so they took Smith. They followed that with all the trading in the third round to end up with Mattison. I was confused, but I thought there MUST be a reason for it. So I started really digging into Gary Kubiak.

First, let's address the question of why Zimmer didn't just hire Kubiak as his OC.

There's a very simple answer. Kubiak was still employed by the Broncos, and all indications were that he was going to remain employed by the Broncos. But then something interesting happened. Kubiak started Jonesing to get out of the front office and back on the field, so he requested as much of John Elway. Initial reports had him becoming the Broncos' OC. But new head coach Vic Fangio didn't want Kubiak as an on-field coach, so the Broncos reversed course, deciding to keep Kubiak in the front office. At THAT point, Kubiak resigned from the Broncos. The Vikings had already named Kevin Stefanski as OC, but Zimmer, who was friends with Kubiak, knew his value and called him up. Not long after, the Vikings hired Kubiak, giving him the offensive consultant thingy whatever title. Kubiak gets what he wants -- another chance to coach on the field, without the rigors head coaching that cost him his health. The Vikings get an experienced, successful guy to mentor their young OC. Gary Kubiak, as he has stated in interviews, doesn't care about titles or position. He loves to coach, period.

Further, let's think about this. You have a guy with 22 years as a successful OC and head coach, with four Super Bowl rings and an NFL Coach of the Year award on his resume. You're teaming him with a first-year OC. It just makes sense. This is going to be Kubiak's offense.

But if you need even more proof, read on.

If you look deep into this, here's what you'll discover about Gary Kubiak's offensive system.

1. He runs to set up the pass. That's the polar opposite of John DeFilippo, and exactly what Mike Zimmer wants.
2. He runs zone blocking, both in the running game and to set up the passing game. That requires a certain kind of O-lineman. Athletic, good feet, good lateral movement, not necessarily the biggest guys but the ones who can move diagonally. That's Kline (305 pounds ... not massive for a guard). That's Bradbury. That's Elflein. That's O'Neill. That's Samia. And when you consider that Riley Reiff played for Kirk Ferentz at Iowa -- another zone blocking guy -- that's Reiff.
3. Tight ends catch a lot of balls. WR1 and WR2 are the most-targeted guys in a Kubiak offense. No surprise there. But next comes the tight ends (plural ... Kubiak runs a LOT of 12 personnel) at about 25% of targets. Then comes the backs, and ONLY THEN comes WR3. Why? Because he doesn't run much 11 personnel. Therefore, WR3 isn't that important.
4. The quarterback in Kubiak's offense gets protected. In the season before Kubiak took over in Houston, David Carr was sacked 68 times. During Kubiak's first year as head coach, that number dropped to 41. By the time Matt Schaub took over the following year, Schaub was sacked just 16 times. Schaub isn't exactly the second coming of Michael Vick, and the Texans didn't have a lot of big-name linemen drafted in the first round. Kubiak, a stickler for details on the O-line, simply knows what he's doing. Where DeFilippo always said things like, "We've got to figure out how to keep the quarterback upright," Kubiak already knows.
5. The quarterback in Kubiak's offense operates primarily from under center, and Kubiak utilizes play-action passing as well or better than any coach in the league. That plays directly into Kirk Cousins' strengths -- he completed 75.2% of his throws off play-action in 2018.
6. Running backs in Kubiak's system need to be of the one-cut variety. In zone blocking, handoffs are typically stretch handoffs, with the back running nearly parallel to the line of scrimmage. The linemen block diagonally, taking whoever comes into their zone. When the hole opens, the back has to plant and go -- one cut. Breakaway speed is nice, but it's not imperative. What IS imperative is the ability to wait for the hole, then shoot through it. Apparently Alexander Mattison has that ability. It also helps that he (and Dalvin Cook) can catch, since the running back group will get more targets than the WR3 group.
7. Two positions routinely thrive under Kubiak -- running back and quarterback. Doesn't matter if they were all-pros before Kubiak ... they typically have great seasons under him. It's a 22-year trend. Examples: Matt Schaub and Arian Foster in Houston. Joe Flacco and Justin Forsett in Baltimore. John Elway and Terrell Davis in Denver (obviously Elway was a Hall-of-Famer by the time Kubiak coached him, but TD was a forgotten 6th-round running back). T.J. Yates in the 2011 playoffs. As quarterbacks coach for the 49ers, Steve Young had the best season of his HOF career. With Kubiak as the OC from 1995-2005, the Denver Broncos amassed more yards and touchdowns than any team in the NFL during that time period.

Taken from the point of view of Kubiak's track record, both free agency and the draft begin to make sense. Gary Kubiak and Kevin Stefanski are looking for athletic offensive linemen who can get out in space and get to the second level. They're looking for an athletic, downfield complement at tight end to Kyle Rudolph. And they're looking for one-cut backs who can also catch the ball. They got all those ingredients.

How do we know this will be Gary Kubiak's offense? There's your answer. Look at the required attributes of players in his system. Then look at the characteristics of the guys the Vikings drafted (and signed in free agency). It's a spot-on match.

The big question will be how long it takes the Vikings personnel to learn and master the system.

Let's be straight here. If you're looking for the next Sean McVay, you're going to be disappointed. Kubiak's offenses aren't high-wire like LA or KC. However, history shows that they're efficient, and they score touchdowns. My hope is that the Vikings become an efficient offensive team. Take care of the football, score touchdowns instead of field goals, and have some balance. With our defense, that's all we need to get back into the playoff picture.
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Re: Vikings 2019 Draft Class Review

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

S197 wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 6:55 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 5:10 pm
Here's another Kubiak stat.

Over the same 20+ year period, WR3s averaged only 21 receptions in Kubiak offenses. That's 14 fewer than Laquon Treadwell caught last year.

This is not John DeFilippo's throw-every-down offense. Kubiak runs to set up the pass, and when he throws, it's to WR1, WR2, tight ends and backs. Don't get bent out of shape over WR3.
I recall a lot of "don't get bent out of shape" rhetoric when JDF was hired here too. Look at the Eagles offense, RPO will make up for OL deficiency, he's incredible at breaking down RedZone defenses, etc.

Granted Kubiak has a much more impressive body of work but I think fans have a right to be critical when they've voiced concerns and were pretty spot on about them in the past. It's not like they were unfounded.

Irv Smith may work out better than an AJ Brown or some other WR3. But I think it's close and we've passed on good WRs in the past in similar rounds that would have been great picks.
No disrespect intended, but I'm sensing an emotional response to a factual statement.

Yes, I was a big proponent of JDF. I made the breaking down red zone, film study, etc. comments. Guilty as charged. I thought he was the next offensive genius wonder child. And you know what? I was completely wrong about the guy. The dumbest dumba$$ in the room. Dumber than a bag of hammers. I fell for his bullsh!t ... hook, line and sinker.

On the other hand, I was also the first one who blasted JDF on this board when it became obvious the Vikings' offense was becoming a dumpster fire. In doing so, I must've said "I was wrong" about a thousand times. I ate crow, and when that crow got cold, I ate some more. Hence it should be noted, I refuse to sing Kubiak's praises as a Viking until he actually does something as a Viking. Not falling into that trap again.

I'm not saying the Vikings will be great under Kubiak. I'm not saying taking Smith was the right thing to do. I'm simply stating a fact: There's a reason why the Vikings took Irv Smith over a WR3 -- because WR3s under Kubiak rarely get targeted. In other words, the Vikings saw the value of an athletic second tight end as greater than that of a third wide receiver. Don't blame me. I'm just the messenger.

"Don't get bent out of shape" means that we shouldn't assume the Vikings don't know how to scout players simply because they took Smith over Brown. They had their reasons. As fans, we're all free to disagree with those reasons. But they have their reasons.
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Re: Vikings 2019 Draft Class Review

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Dammit Kapp, quit posting!!!! You are getting me excited about Viking football and it's only early May!!!

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Re: Vikings 2019 Draft Class Review

Post by PsyDanny »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 9:20 pm
Thank you.

Here's what prompted me to start looking into this. The draft, on its face value, didn't make sense to me. Obviously Garrett Bradbury made sense, but nothing else did. I'd seen that Irv Smith was basically a first-round talent at TE. I was wondering if the Vikings might take Noah Fant if he was available (he was) but they passed in favor of Bradbury, so I thought maybe tight end wasn't a position of concern because I figured Smith would be gone by the time the Vikings picked in Round 2. But he was still available, so they took Smith. They followed that with all the trading in the third round to end up with Mattison. I was confused, but I thought there MUST be a reason for it. So I started really digging into Gary Kubiak.

First, let's address the question of why Zimmer didn't just hire Kubiak as his OC.

There's a very simple answer. Kubiak was still employed by the Broncos, and all indications were that he was going to remain employed by the Broncos. But then something interesting happened. Kubiak started Jonesing to get out of the front office and back on the field, so he requested as much of John Elway. Initial reports had him becoming the Broncos' OC. But new head coach Vic Fangio didn't want Kubiak as an on-field coach, so the Broncos reversed course, deciding to keep Kubiak in the front office. At THAT point, Kubiak resigned from the Broncos. The Vikings had already named Kevin Stefanski as OC, but Zimmer, who was friends with Kubiak, knew his value and called him up. Not long after, the Vikings hired Kubiak, giving him the offensive consultant thingy whatever title. Kubiak gets what he wants -- another chance to coach on the field, without the rigors head coaching that cost him his health. The Vikings get an experienced, successful guy to mentor their young OC. Gary Kubiak, as he has stated in interviews, doesn't care about titles or position. He loves to coach, period.

Further, let's think about this. You have a guy with 22 years as a successful OC and head coach, with four Super Bowl rings and an NFL Coach of the Year award on his resume. You're teaming him with a first-year OC. It just makes sense. This is going to be Kubiak's offense.

But if you need even more proof, read on.

If you look deep into this, here's what you'll discover about Gary Kubiak's offensive system.

1. He runs to set up the pass. That's the polar opposite of John DeFilippo, and exactly what Mike Zimmer wants.
2. He runs zone blocking, both in the running game and to set up the passing game. That requires a certain kind of O-lineman. Athletic, good feet, good lateral movement, not necessarily the biggest guys but the ones who can move diagonally. That's Kline (305 pounds ... not massive for a guard). That's Bradbury. That's Elflein. That's O'Neill. That's Samia. And when you consider that Riley Reiff played for Kirk Ferentz at Iowa -- another zone blocking guy -- that's Reiff.
3. Tight ends catch a lot of balls. WR1 and WR2 are the most-targeted guys in a Kubiak offense. No surprise there. But next comes the tight ends (plural ... Kubiak runs a LOT of 12 personnel) at about 25% of targets. Then comes the backs, and ONLY THEN comes WR3. Why? Because he doesn't run much 11 personnel. Therefore, WR3 isn't that important.
4. The quarterback in Kubiak's offense gets protected. In the season before Kubiak took over in Houston, David Carr was sacked 68 times. During Kubiak's first year as head coach, that number dropped to 41. By the time Matt Schaub took over the following year, Schaub was sacked just 16 times. Schaub isn't exactly the second coming of Michael Vick, and the Texans didn't have a lot of big-name linemen drafted in the first round. Kubiak, a stickler for details on the O-line, simply knows what he's doing. Where DeFilippo always said things like, "We've got to figure out how to keep the quarterback upright," Kubiak already knows.
5. The quarterback in Kubiak's offense operates primarily from under center, and Kubiak utilizes play-action passing as well or better than any coach in the league. That plays directly into Kirk Cousins' strengths -- he completed 75.2% of his throws off play-action in 2018.
6. Running backs in Kubiak's system need to be of the one-cut variety. In zone blocking, handoffs are typically stretch handoffs, with the back running nearly parallel to the line of scrimmage. The linemen block diagonally, taking whoever comes into their zone. When the hole opens, the back has to plant and go -- one cut. Breakaway speed is nice, but it's not imperative. What IS imperative is the ability to wait for the hole, then shoot through it. Apparently Alexander Mattison has that ability. It also helps that he (and Dalvin Cook) can catch, since the running back group will get more targets than the WR3 group.
7. Two positions routinely thrive under Kubiak -- running back and quarterback. Doesn't matter if they were all-pros before Kubiak ... they typically have great seasons under him. It's a 22-year trend. Examples: Matt Schaub and Arian Foster in Houston. Joe Flacco and Justin Forsett in Baltimore. John Elway and Terrell Davis in Denver (obviously Elway was a Hall-of-Famer by the time Kubiak coached him, but TD was a forgotten 6th-round running back). T.J. Yates in the 2011 playoffs. As quarterbacks coach for the 49ers, Steve Young had the best season of his HOF career. With Kubiak as the OC from 1995-2005, the Denver Broncos amassed more yards and touchdowns than any team in the NFL during that time period.

Taken from the point of view of Kubiak's track record, both free agency and the draft begin to make sense. Gary Kubiak and Kevin Stefanski are looking for athletic offensive linemen who can get out in space and get to the second level. They're looking for an athletic, downfield complement at tight end to Kyle Rudolph. And they're looking for one-cut backs who can also catch the ball. They got all those ingredients.

How do we know this will be Gary Kubiak's offense? There's your answer. Look at the required attributes of players in his system. Then look at the characteristics of the guys the Vikings drafted (and signed in free agency). It's a spot-on match.

The big question will be how long it takes the Vikings personnel to learn and master the system.

Let's be straight here. If you're looking for the next Sean McVay, you're going to be disappointed. Kubiak's offenses aren't high-wire like LA or KC. However, history shows that they're efficient, and they score touchdowns. My hope is that the Vikings become an efficient offensive team. Take care of the football, score touchdowns instead of field goals, and have some balance. With our defense, that's all we need to get back into the playoff picture.
Sounds good. My concern in this regard is whether DC's might have his schtick figured out after all these years.
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Re: Vikings 2019 Draft Class Review

Post by VikingLord »

fiestavike wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 5:50 pm
VikingLord wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 2:08 pm

I'm saying Zimmer made Stefanski the OC, not Kubiak.
Essentially, Kubiak is the Head Coach of the Offense. Practicially, its a Zimmer/Kubiak partnership. Its a bit unconventional, but I think it can work really well.
I might be the only person here who doesn't see it this way, but it seems like this is an arrangement with a lot of potential to go south. If Kubiak is the de facto "head coach of the offense", and Stefanski is what, his "apprentice", then that arrangement will work and get support here only as long as the Vikings offense performs well. If it stumbles, if the offense struggles, who gets the blame for that? Who is going to be accountable? The "offensive consultant" Kubiak? Stefanski? Zimmer, for implementing that arrangement?

Of course, who can argue with having Kubiak design the offense around his principles that have enjoyed success in the past? Who is going to argue that he be the primary gameplanner and playcaller on gamedays? He's had that success, and the Vikings offense struggled for large portions of last season.

But what if it doesn't work here? What then? What if the players start to complain about it?

Like I said, when I think about this, I'm thinking about what happened with another former head coach who had enjoyed a great deal of success that was the actual OC for the Vikings - Norv Turner. He just up and quit mid-season, largely due to significant differences between what he wanted to do and what Zimmer wanted to do. And that was just 2 guys. Now, we've apparently got three of them with even less clarity about where the buck stops.

I hope it works. I really do. I'm just not convinced it will.
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Re: Vikings 2019 Draft Class Review

Post by fiestavike »

VikingLord wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 1:37 pm
fiestavike wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 5:50 pm

Essentially, Kubiak is the Head Coach of the Offense. Practicially, its a Zimmer/Kubiak partnership. Its a bit unconventional, but I think it can work really well.
I might be the only person here who doesn't see it this way, but it seems like this is an arrangement with a lot of potential to go south. If Kubiak is the de facto "head coach of the offense", and Stefanski is what, his "apprentice", then that arrangement will work and get support here only as long as the Vikings offense performs well. If it stumbles, if the offense struggles, who gets the blame for that? Who is going to be accountable? The "offensive consultant" Kubiak? Stefanski? Zimmer, for implementing that arrangement?

Of course, who can argue with having Kubiak design the offense around his principles that have enjoyed success in the past? Who is going to argue that he be the primary gameplanner and playcaller on gamedays? He's had that success, and the Vikings offense struggled for large portions of last season.

But what if it doesn't work here? What then? What if the players start to complain about it?

Like I said, when I think about this, I'm thinking about what happened with another former head coach who had enjoyed a great deal of success that was the actual OC for the Vikings - Norv Turner. He just up and quit mid-season, largely due to significant differences between what he wanted to do and what Zimmer wanted to do. And that was just 2 guys. Now, we've apparently got three of them with even less clarity about where the buck stops.

I hope it works. I really do. I'm just not convinced it will.
To some degree, if it doesn't work you are merely in the same boat with 30 other NFL teams. If it does work, I think you have a recipe for long term success and continuity, because neither Kubiak or Zimmer are going to leave Minnesota for another head coaching job. Yes, there's risk. Perhaps there is ambiguity. Stefanski seems happy about it, Zimmer has raved about the level of communication to such a degree that it implies to me that the big issue with JDF was have been his inability/unwillingness to communicate with scouts and staff...like his offense was proprietary, and after all he would be leaving for a head coaching position in a year (which, to be fair, many assumed might be the case with this 'innovative young coordinator') and he didn't want to give away any secrets.
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Re: Vikings 2019 Draft Class Review

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

VikingLord wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 1:37 pm
fiestavike wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 5:50 pm

Essentially, Kubiak is the Head Coach of the Offense. Practicially, its a Zimmer/Kubiak partnership. Its a bit unconventional, but I think it can work really well.
I might be the only person here who doesn't see it this way, but it seems like this is an arrangement with a lot of potential to go south. If Kubiak is the de facto "head coach of the offense", and Stefanski is what, his "apprentice", then that arrangement will work and get support here only as long as the Vikings offense performs well. If it stumbles, if the offense struggles, who gets the blame for that? Who is going to be accountable? The "offensive consultant" Kubiak? Stefanski? Zimmer, for implementing that arrangement?

Of course, who can argue with having Kubiak design the offense around his principles that have enjoyed success in the past? Who is going to argue that he be the primary gameplanner and playcaller on gamedays? He's had that success, and the Vikings offense struggled for large portions of last season.

But what if it doesn't work here? What then? What if the players start to complain about it?

Like I said, when I think about this, I'm thinking about what happened with another former head coach who had enjoyed a great deal of success that was the actual OC for the Vikings - Norv Turner. He just up and quit mid-season, largely due to significant differences between what he wanted to do and what Zimmer wanted to do. And that was just 2 guys. Now, we've apparently got three of them with even less clarity about where the buck stops.

I hope it works. I really do. I'm just not convinced it will.
Good points.

Look, when Pat Shurmur was tight ends coach, you were looking at a similar situation. You had a guy with head coaching experience lurking. Of course, the guy he was lurking behind (Norv) ALSO had plenty of head coaching experience, but that further drives home VL's point. If Zimmer will dump an experienced guy when the offense fails and promote the guy in the wings, what might he do with an inexperienced guy? How fast might he pull that trigger?

The best thing that could possibly happen is for the Vikings' offense to play up to Kubiak's track record. If they don't, it might not matter who is OC and who is lurking ... because the whole lot of them, Zimmer and Spielman included, might be gone.
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S197
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Re: Vikings 2019 Draft Class Review

Post by S197 »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 9:49 pm
S197 wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 6:55 pm

I recall a lot of "don't get bent out of shape" rhetoric when JDF was hired here too. Look at the Eagles offense, RPO will make up for OL deficiency, he's incredible at breaking down RedZone defenses, etc.

Granted Kubiak has a much more impressive body of work but I think fans have a right to be critical when they've voiced concerns and were pretty spot on about them in the past. It's not like they were unfounded.

Irv Smith may work out better than an AJ Brown or some other WR3. But I think it's close and we've passed on good WRs in the past in similar rounds that would have been great picks.
No disrespect intended, but I'm sensing an emotional response to a factual statement.

Yes, I was a big proponent of JDF. I made the breaking down red zone, film study, etc. comments. Guilty as charged. I thought he was the next offensive genius wonder child. And you know what? I was completely wrong about the guy. The dumbest dumba$$ in the room. Dumber than a bag of hammers. I fell for his bullsh!t ... hook, line and sinker.

On the other hand, I was also the first one who blasted JDF on this board when it became obvious the Vikings' offense was becoming a dumpster fire. In doing so, I must've said "I was wrong" about a thousand times. I ate crow, and when that crow got cold, I ate some more. Hence it should be noted, I refuse to sing Kubiak's praises as a Viking until he actually does something as a Viking. Not falling into that trap again.

I'm not saying the Vikings will be great under Kubiak. I'm not saying taking Smith was the right thing to do. I'm simply stating a fact: There's a reason why the Vikings took Irv Smith over a WR3 -- because WR3s under Kubiak rarely get targeted. In other words, the Vikings saw the value of an athletic second tight end as greater than that of a third wide receiver. Don't blame me. I'm just the messenger.

"Don't get bent out of shape" means that we shouldn't assume the Vikings don't know how to scout players simply because they took Smith over Brown. They had their reasons. As fans, we're all free to disagree with those reasons. But they have their reasons.
I think a lot of us were excited about JDF. The Eagles offense was prolific and he did great things with both Foles and Wentz. If that came across as a "told you so" post, that wasn't the intention because I've been plenty wrong about a lot of things.

I understand the pick and I think it will probably be fine. If anything I think the wheels fell off from the incessant trade downs, which was after Smith. I get trading down to snag another pick or two but 12 picks... its a pretty strong indication of not being able to scout late round players. Maybe if this was the first time Rick did this you could make an argument that he did it because the draft was incredibly deep, but he's done it enough that it's clear it's a general strategy. To some degree I buy that no one can assess these late rounders with any degree of accuracy, so in that respect it makes sense, but there's not a whole lot of GMs that make it their goal to continually take 9, 10, 11+ guys in the draft.

As for Kubiak, I think he'll be a good value add but I wouldn't be surprised if the team struggles this year. These scheme changes take time. Especially when you are working with a number of young guys that have little continuity. It's frustrating they wasted last year by neglecting the OL issues but at least they can finally start building now that they have a decent foundation.

I'm tired of rebuilding, rescheming, redrafting, recoaching... I guess I've lost a lot of my patience these last few years.
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