Trade Window And Official Free Agency Begins!

[PurpleMustReign]

Whatever. Spielman put us in this place. Somehow we have money to sign Barr but we don't to sign an OL? Do you guys even read what you post sometimes? No one on this board said sign someone just to sign someone. But there are/were options available. Yes, most of them are being overpaid but that is the nature of teh beast now.
And to answer Kapps question... We have plenty of options to trade. We have 3,500 CBs on the team and two of them are very high on some people's lists. If spielman is so good, why can't he figure something out? PHP even admitted that it was a miss.
I'm sick of the excuses. I'm sick of the long sentences from Rick that justify his reasoning. The bottom line is our OL sucked last season, and they are actually worse now.

So you'd rather let a known quantity like Anthony Barr walk in favor of another mediocre offensive lineman? Are you even aware that Barr's cap hit for 2019 is now $5.6 million, which less than Mike Remmers' would have been? Please, please explain to me how that was a bad move.

There's ONE CB with trade value, and that's Trae Waynes. And it's very possible he only has significant trade value in the eyes of Vikings fans. With a $9 million+ cap hit, I guarantee you Spielman listened to offers for Waynes, but they weren't going to give him away for nothing.

As for the other 3,499 cornerbacks, nobody's going to give up the farm for a possibly declining Rhodes, a guy in Alexander who just started playing with any consistency, or two guys in Hughes and Hill who just came off their rookie seasons.

So yeah, I do read what I post. Do you? Or do you just look for any excuse to blast the Vikings and Spielman?

Would you rather I just sit back and rah rah all the time? Because that isn't going to happen. The OL has been an issue ever since he came here. Remember 2009? We were all worried Favre was going to get killed because if how often he was getting hit. 2012 was the only year the OL had any resemblemce of adequate and I think a lot of that was masked by AD going insane.
So yes. I am going to call a spade a spade and criticize Spielman. He sucks at getting OL talent. Plain and simple. I don't know how long people need to come to the conclusion that he is not a good GM. Frankly he didn't have much success getting defensive talent either until Zimmer came.
But yeah. Rah team! Sis boom bah!

[PurpleMustReign]

And to answer Kapp's first question... Yes I was OK with letting Barr walk. He's one of my favorite players, but Wilson showed he can handle the job for much cheaper.
And if I am not mistaken, you criticized Barr's play just as much as everyone else. But now that I disagreed with you and triggered something, he's suddenly a known commodity. OK.

[mansquatch]

Why are you "ok with this"? Why do you think there will be a different outcome from the other years where Rick ignored the Oline? Are you familiar with the definition of the word insanity?

Einstein defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over again. I get where you are coming from, you are saying the GM is doing the same thing over and over again. Maybe he is. However, I do not find this line of reason complete and therefore it is not persuasive.

My reasoning is very simple. The coaching has evolved on offense year over year. In 2017 the Vikings OL was decent under a regime of Shurmur/Sparano. In 2018, it was not so great under a regime of DeFelippo/Barone. In 2019 the regime will be Stefanski/Kubiak.

So things are quite obviously not the same. my post was all about coaching in particular and as I've laid out, it is obviously not the same. Your reasoning belies an opinion that the coaching simple is equal between the three groups I described and thus it is a wash. I flatly disagree on this point.

I think I'm going to do a post on my views on Free Agency and Coaching in particular. I think the majority of the board (and all of the sports media) has completely missed the true root causes of our woes in 2018. Everyone is piling on Cousins and ignoring JDF and Tony Sparano's death.

[CharVike]

Why are you "ok with this"? Why do you think there will be a different outcome from the other years where Rick ignored the Oline? Are you familiar with the definition of the word insanity?

Einstein defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over again. I get where you are coming from, you are saying the GM is doing the same thing over and over again. Maybe he is. However, I do not find this line of reason complete and therefore it is not persuasive.

My reasoning is very simple. The coaching has evolved on offense year over year. In 2017 the Vikings OL was decent under a regime of Shurmur/Sparano. In 2018, it was not so great under a regime of DeFelippo/Barone. In 2019 the regime will be Stefanski/Kubiak.

So things are quite obviously not the same. my post was all about coaching in particular and as I've laid out, it is obviously not the same. Your reasoning belies an opinion that the coaching simple is equal between the three groups I described and thus it is a wash. I flatly disagree on this point.

I think I'm going to do a post on my views on Free Agency and Coaching in particular. I think the majority of the board (and all of the sports media) has completely missed the true root causes of our woes in 2018. Everyone is piling on Cousins and ignoring JDF and Tony Sparano's death.

I feel the death of Sparano had much to do about our OL play. Rick made a bad hire with JDF. Of course he could have re-cycled some clone and nobody would have liked that but he actually took a chance. It could have worked the other way also. But Cousins had his own faults also. Seemed he wasn't in sync with his WRs. Could be year one in a new system ect... Ah wait another new system. Start over from square one. That's hard to do. But I'm glad we have him though.

[PurpleKoolaid]

Whatever. Spielman put us in this place. Somehow we have money to sign Barr but we don't to sign an OL? Do you guys even read what you post sometimes? No one on this board said sign someone just to sign someone. But there are/were options available. Yes, most of them are being overpaid but that is the nature of teh beast now.
And to answer Kapps question... We have plenty of options to trade. We have 3,500 CBs on the team and two of them are very high on some people's lists. If spielman is so good, why can't he figure something out? PHP even admitted that it was a miss.
I'm sick of the excuses. I'm sick of the long sentences from Rick that justify his reasoning. The bottom line is our OL sucked last season, and they are actually worse now.

So you'd rather let a known quantity like Anthony Barr walk in favor of another mediocre offensive lineman? Are you even aware that Barr's cap hit for 2019 is now $5.6 million, which less than Mike Remmers' would have been? Please, please explain to me how that was a bad move.

There's ONE CB with trade value, and that's Trae Waynes. And it's very possible he only has significant trade value in the eyes of Vikings fans. With a $9 million+ cap hit, I guarantee you Spielman listened to offers for Waynes, but they weren't going to give him away for nothing.

As for the other 3,499 cornerbacks, nobody's going to give up the farm for a possibly declining Rhodes, a guy in Alexander who just started playing with any consistency, or two guys in Hughes and Hill who just came off their rookie seasons.

So yeah, I do read what I post. Do you? Or do you just look for any excuse to blast the Vikings and Spielman?

Are people supposed to be happy with Rick's work? Why? 8 wins is your idea of progress? The Vikes management has been horrid. Rick should have been fired for incompetence. But you find Barr has been doing his job? He cant get blockers off of him, and he is a poor blitzer. Kendricks plays much smarter and can read the D's he see just as well as Barr. We could have spent Barr's money for ANYTHING on the offensive side of the ball.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Exactly Kapp. We aren’t just going to sign offensive lineman to sign them. Nor are we going to overpay for bums like Billy Turner, JR Sweezy and Bobby Hart. Guys need to relax with the whole OL thing. Clearly Spielman isn’t going to head into next season with no guards. We’re drafting an offensive lineman early. That’s almost a guarantee. Maybe even two. We have Josh Kline coming on a visit too. Guys love to complain that Spielman isn’t doing his job but those same people have yet to give an alternative.

The last great OL that was full of free agents and little draft picks was the raiders. How long did that last? They had one of the worst offensive lines in the league this year. Got rid of Osemele. Got rid of Penn. Jackson flopped last year then got hurt. Howard was a journeyman that never lasted. They had 1 draft pick and 4 free agents on their starting offensive line in 2016. They are now down to their one draft pick (Jackson) and Hudson and had one of the worst lines in football.

Now a line like the cowboys was built entirely through the draft and has stayed consistent for a long time and will continue to stay that way. Granted they got hit with injuries this year but that happens. They aren’t soaking dead money because they signed flop free agents every year like others do. That’s not how you build an offensive line.

My guess is, after this years draft, Spielman will be doing similar. I see our starting OL being a combination of (no particular order) Reiff, Kline, Elflein, rookie and O’Neill or Reiff, rookie, rookie, Elflein and O’Neill. That would give us 3-4 draft picks on our OL with the only FAs being Reiff and possibly Kline.

Either way, diving into FAs just because we need guys isn’t the way to approach it. And I’m glad they haven’t done that. This draft is OL deep. Let’s the draft play out and relax

Whatever. Spielman put us in this place. Somehow we have money to sign Barr but we don't to sign an OL? Do you guys even read what you post sometimes? No one on this board said sign someone just to sign someone. But there are/were options available. Yes, most of them are being overpaid but that is the nature of teh beast now.
And to answer Kapps question... We have plenty of options to trade. We have 3,500 CBs on the team and two of them are very high on some people's lists. If spielman is so good, why can't he figure something out? PHP even admitted that it was a miss.
I'm sick of the excuses. I'm sick of the long sentences from Rick that justify his reasoning. The bottom line is our OL sucked last season, and they are actually worse now.

Well no sh** it's worse man. We have no guards. Did you want us to keep Compton and Remmers so it wasnt worse by the end of free agency? So many Vikings fans are like this year after year in free agency when we dont dive in like everyone else. We have one of the best rosters in the league and it was built through the draft. Almost entirely. We still have plenty of FA options and have an entire draft. My goodness.

And along with what Kapp said, why let Anthony Barr walk just to sign a guy like Billy Turner? How does that make any sense whatsoever? Dont sit there and say, nobody is saying sign someone just to sign them. Thats how you're acting!! My question is WHY did we need to dip into the FA pool within the first few days? That is when money is wasted and below average players get overpaid and that's exactly what happened. It's not the "nature of the beast". Why go sign someone like Billy Turner for $7 million a year when you can get a guy like Josh Kline for less than that and wont be on the hook for 4 years? Does that somehow not make sense to you? We can get an equivalent player at LESS money and wont be on the hook if he flops. And if you are saying there ARE options available and I just told you we were going after Schraeder and Kline who is also visiting, why are you sitting here still complaining. They arent saying "we are signing no offensive lineman and are going to wing it in the draft". There ARE options available and they WILL be cheaper than what went early on and just as good. Signings will happen. We're not even a full week into free agency yet.

[fiestavike]

I'm disappointed they got rid of Remmers to save a measly 4.4 million. That could have been competent RT play at a value or good insurance in a versatile backup. I'd rather have saved that money somewhere else. Anyway, as it stands we may bring in a vet who is a known commodity off of the discount pile who can provide us something halfway similar. After that, I will be very disappointed if they don't add two starters along the OL in this draft.

[S197]

Spielman rightly deserves criticism for the OL, which has been bad throughout his very long tenure. He's particularly bad with interior lineman. Has he, in the last 10 years drafted any guards on day 1 or 2? I don't think so, Elflein in the 3rd is probably the closest. He's also done very poorly bringing in FA guards. Anyone remember Artis Hicks or Anthony Herrera? Boone?

He's had some success, guys like Sullivan, maybe Fusco but over a 10 year span it leaves much to be desired. I don't think it's really fair to tell fans to relax when we've had a GM let us down for the last decade in this respect. Let's not pretend like this is a 1 or 2 year issue of extraordinary circumstances.

I think overall Rick has built a good roster but I don't know how any of his body of work should have fans resting easy that he'll make it right via the draft.

[halfgiz]

Whatever. Spielman put us in this place. Somehow we have money to sign Barr but we don't to sign an OL? Do you guys even read what you post sometimes? No one on this board said sign someone just to sign someone. But there are/were options available. Yes, most of them are being overpaid but that is the nature of teh beast now.
And to answer Kapps question... We have plenty of options to trade. We have 3,500 CBs on the team and two of them are very high on some people's lists. If spielman is so good, why can't he figure something out? PHP even admitted that it was a miss.
I'm sick of the excuses. I'm sick of the long sentences from Rick that justify his reasoning. The bottom line is our OL sucked last season, and they are actually worse now.

Well no sh** it's worse man. We have no guards. Did you want us to keep Compton and Remmers so it wasnt worse by the end of free agency? So many Vikings fans are like this year after year in free agency when we dont dive in like everyone else. We have one of the best rosters in the league and it was built through the draft. Almost entirely. We still have plenty of FA options and have an entire draft. My goodness.

And along with what Kapp said, why let Anthony Barr walk just to sign a guy like Billy Turner? How does that make any sense whatsoever? Dont sit there and say, nobody is saying sign someone just to sign them. Thats how you're acting!! My question is WHY did we need to dip into the FA pool within the first few days? That is when money is wasted and below average players get overpaid and that's exactly what happened. It's not the "nature of the beast". Why go sign someone like Billy Turner for $7 million a year when you can get a guy like Josh Kline for less than that and wont be on the hook for 4 years? Does that somehow not make sense to you? We can get an equivalent player at LESS money and wont be on the hook if he flops. And if you are saying there ARE options available and I just told you we were going after Schraeder and Kline who is also visiting, why are you sitting here still complaining. They arent saying "we are signing no offensive lineman and are going to wing it in the draft". There ARE options available and they WILL be cheaper than what went early on and just as good. Signings will happen. We're not even a full week into free agency yet.

Your comparing Turner to Kline Kline graded worse than Remmers.
Slick Rick hasn't got the OL right in 4-5 years.

[fiestavike]

Spielman rightly deserves criticism for the OL, which has been bad throughout his very long tenure. He's particularly bad with interior lineman. Has he, in the last 10 years drafted any guards on day 1 or 2? I don't think so, Elflein in the 3rd is probably the closest. He's also done very poorly bringing in FA guards. Anyone remember Artis Hicks or Anthony Herrera? Boone?

He's had some success, guys like Sullivan, maybe Fusco but over a 10 year span it leaves much to be desired. I don't think it's really fair to tell fans to relax when we've had a GM let us down for the last decade in this respect. Let's not pretend like this is a 1 or 2 year issue of extraordinary circumstances.

I think overall Rick has built a good roster but I don't know how any of his body of work should have fans resting easy that he'll make it right via the draft.

If pressed, what position do you think Spielman goes with in the 1st round this year?

[S197]

Spielman rightly deserves criticism for the OL, which has been bad throughout his very long tenure. He's particularly bad with interior lineman. Has he, in the last 10 years drafted any guards on day 1 or 2? I don't think so, Elflein in the 3rd is probably the closest. He's also done very poorly bringing in FA guards. Anyone remember Artis Hicks or Anthony Herrera? Boone?

He's had some success, guys like Sullivan, maybe Fusco but over a 10 year span it leaves much to be desired. I don't think it's really fair to tell fans to relax when we've had a GM let us down for the last decade in this respect. Let's not pretend like this is a 1 or 2 year issue of extraordinary circumstances.

I think overall Rick has built a good roster but I don't know how any of his body of work should have fans resting easy that he'll make it right via the draft.

If pressed, what position do you think Spielman goes with in the 1st round this year?

I think somewhere in the trenches, either OL or DT depending on how the picks shake out. Dark horse move is one of the Iowa TE's if they're around.

[halfgiz]

Spielman rightly deserves criticism for the OL, which has been bad throughout his very long tenure. He's particularly bad with interior lineman. Has he, in the last 10 years drafted any guards on day 1 or 2? I don't think so, Elflein in the 3rd is probably the closest. He's also done very poorly bringing in FA guards. Anyone remember Artis Hicks or Anthony Herrera? Boone?

He's had some success, guys like Sullivan, maybe Fusco but over a 10 year span it leaves much to be desired. I don't think it's really fair to tell fans to relax when we've had a GM let us down for the last decade in this respect. Let's not pretend like this is a 1 or 2 year issue of extraordinary circumstances.

I think overall Rick has built a good roster but I don't know how any of his body of work should have fans resting easy that he'll make it right via the draft.

Here is a few more S197
Boone,Clemmings,Beavers, Andre Smith, Compton,Sirles, Fusco has been his fixes,

[fiestavike]

If pressed, what position do you think Spielman goes with in the 1st round this year?

I think somewhere in the trenches, either OL or DT depending on how the picks shake out. Dark horse move is one of the Iowa TE's if they're around.

That sounds about right, although keeping Rudolph and Barr, and signing Stephen makes me think the odds of OL go way up.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Well no sh** it's worse man. We have no guards. Did you want us to keep Compton and Remmers so it wasnt worse by the end of free agency? So many Vikings fans are like this year after year in free agency when we dont dive in like everyone else. We have one of the best rosters in the league and it was built through the draft. Almost entirely. We still have plenty of FA options and have an entire draft. My goodness.

And along with what Kapp said, why let Anthony Barr walk just to sign a guy like Billy Turner? How does that make any sense whatsoever? Dont sit there and say, nobody is saying sign someone just to sign them. Thats how you're acting!! My question is WHY did we need to dip into the FA pool within the first few days? That is when money is wasted and below average players get overpaid and that's exactly what happened. It's not the "nature of the beast". Why go sign someone like Billy Turner for $7 million a year when you can get a guy like Josh Kline for less than that and wont be on the hook for 4 years? Does that somehow not make sense to you? We can get an equivalent player at LESS money and wont be on the hook if he flops. And if you are saying there ARE options available and I just told you we were going after Schraeder and Kline who is also visiting, why are you sitting here still complaining. They arent saying "we are signing no offensive lineman and are going to wing it in the draft". There ARE options available and they WILL be cheaper than what went early on and just as good. Signings will happen. We're not even a full week into free agency yet.

Your comparing Turner to Kline Kline graded worse than Remmers.
Slick Rick hasn't got the OL right in 4-5 years.

Another example of not doing any research on a player and it sure doesn’t help your argument. Turner was literally the worst guard in football in Miami. He signed with the broncos for 1 year/$2 million in 2016. That’s less than Rashod Hill is getting paid. Because Turner was that bad. In 2016 he played in 8 total games, he was the #75 of 76 tackles in the nfl. In 2015 for the dolphins he was the 63rd of 68 guards in the nfl. He then went on to start zero, yes ZERO games in 2017. He ended up being forced to start this year and showed decent.

Josh Kline, prior to this year, was in the top 30 three years in a row according to PFF. He was the 12th best pass blocking guard in the nfl in 2017. He was top 20 in pass blocking in 2016. He also started 46 out of 48 games with Tennessee which shows his durability.

So big deal, Turner outdid Kline one year. But when you look at what happened over time, it’s literally not even close. Turner wasn’t just bad, he was literally horrible. It’s like comparing TJ Clemmings to Brian O’Neill. There’s not a comparison.

So sit there and giggle all you want, but you actually thinking Billy Turner is even an average offensive lineman is what’s comical. Or the fact that you think we should have signed a guy like that and THEN say Spielman doesn’t know what he’s doing. I’m starting to think you don’t know what you’re talking about. You looked at one grade to compare the two. That’s like looking at Case Keenums 2017 and saying he’s a better QB than Matt Ryan because he made it further that year and had better stats. It’s just not realistic. And to top it all off, Kline should come cheaper than Turner, and we won’t be on the hook for 4 years is my guess. I take Kline 10 times out of 10 over turner. Even if Turner was cheaper which he won’t be. The packers just grossly overpaid for a one year wonder offensive lineman. And I can’t even say “wonder” because he was just average....either way I’m not going to complain about the packers making that mistake

[CharVike]

So you'd rather let a known quantity like Anthony Barr walk in favor of another mediocre offensive lineman? Are you even aware that Barr's cap hit for 2019 is now $5.6 million, which less than Mike Remmers' would have been? Please, please explain to me how that was a bad move.

There's ONE CB with trade value, and that's Trae Waynes. And it's very possible he only has significant trade value in the eyes of Vikings fans. With a $9 million+ cap hit, I guarantee you Spielman listened to offers for Waynes, but they weren't going to give him away for nothing.

As for the other 3,499 cornerbacks, nobody's going to give up the farm for a possibly declining Rhodes, a guy in Alexander who just started playing with any consistency, or two guys in Hughes and Hill who just came off their rookie seasons.

So yeah, I do read what I post. Do you? Or do you just look for any excuse to blast the Vikings and Spielman?

Are people supposed to be happy with Rick's work? Why? 8 wins is your idea of progress? The Vikes management has been horrid. Rick should have been fired for incompetence. But you find Barr has been doing his job? He cant get blockers off of him, and he is a poor blitzer. Kendricks plays much smarter and can read the D's he see just as well as Barr. We could have spent Barr's money for ANYTHING on the offensive side of the ball.

Barr blows but was offered a deal right out of the blocks. And a big deal to boot. OK I get it. Our O has been bad for awhile no doubt and to me that comes down to QBs. I give Rick credit for trying and some feel Cousins isn't the guy but he had no choice. Some feel Case should still be the guy. He's a joke and couldn't hold a starting job. Things didn't bounce our way like they did in 2017. Many pieces broke. Right now our OL blows, we don't have a TE and our two starting WRs are good but they don't scare teams. Beyond them the cupboard is empty. How can any QB function with that supporting cast. Rick got us to the champ game with a 3rd string joke QB. We haven't been beyond that since what 1975 or some BS. We don't have the talent now to reach the show and have too many holes to fill. The best hope is for our D to become elite. But somethings missing there also.