Rick Spielman, what should the Vikes do with him

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Pondering Her Percy
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Re: Rick Spielman, what should the Vikes do with him

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

Thaumaturgist wrote: I think the point is we don't really know how much say he really had in things.
Exactly. I've continued to say this for the past however many years I've been on this board and some continue to act like they know what goes on behind closed doors.
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Re: Rick Spielman, what should the Vikes do with him

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Pondering Her Percy wrote:^exactly what I am talking about. "Big deal". I would say it is a big deal Jim. You cant have the best of both worlds here. There isnt a team in the NFL with elite play on both sides of the ball. In order to build an elite defense, you might struggle to have an above average to elite offense. And vice versa. You cant build both at the same time. He isnt some kind of miracle worker.
I agree that asking them to be elite on both sides of the ball would be asking a lot. The problem is they keep ending up near the bottom of the league on one side of the ball or the other. I'm not asking for the team to be elite across the board but there's a lot of road between an elite and a lousy unit. Maybe they could pick a stop in-between a little more often. ;)

Having an elite defense IS nice. It's just cold comfort when the team remains mediocre and the defense's ascent has been accompanied by the offense's swift descent to become one of the league's worst.
He went from the ground up in 2012 and we've made the playoffs twice. Probably 3 times if we didnt get hit with the injury bug this year. It's not like when Spielman took over we were the New England Patriots. We were more like the 49ers of right now. People think they know how those drafts went down but truthfully you dont. Unless you were a fly on the wall. It could of been him, it couldve been others. Granted he had a say but who's to say he wanted a guy that Chili didnt so they went in a different direction. Like I said, nobody know. I'm looking at when he was in full control. And that was 2012 and beyond.
Again: he ran the scouting department. He ran the draft. We were told the final call on draft day belonged to Rick Spielman. That's a lot to ignore or write off.

If the rebuild began in 2012 who was running the personnel department and making the major personnel decisions in 2011? Frazier alone? I seriously doubt it. I think it's pretty safe to say the rebuilding project began in the offseason of 2011 and was kicked further into gear with the selection of Christian Ponder.
Of course thats the goal but like I said, you cant have the best of both worlds. Yes the offense could be better. But injuries have definitely made it alot worse than it was.
It's gone from #29 to #31, not a long fall.
And his mismanagement of the QB position had nothing to do with how this year has gone record wise. Like I said, he started from scratch not that long ago. Did you really expect a Super Bowl that fast after a complete rebuild? I sure didnt expect it.
It's not just about this year.
It's so easy to sit here and pick apart different things over the years with Spielman. However you can literally do that with any GM in the NFL.
The difference is that some of them have built championship teams. Some of them have built teams that sustain success and compete at a high level over the long haul rather than occasionally popping up from mediocrity or worse to lose a playoff game. Nobody is expecting perfection here but the excuses for Spielman ring hollow at this point. Look around! There are franchises in the NFL who have achieved FAR more success and sustained it for a reasonable period of time. 5 years into an effective rebuild, a team can be a Super Bowl winner.

I just don't think he has the vision for the team and the overall strategy necessary to build a champion.
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Re: Rick Spielman, what should the Vikes do with him

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Mothman wrote:I've made my position on Spielman clear in recent weeks. I don't think he's the right GM to build a Super Bowl champion in Minnesota and consequently, I think the Vikes need to find a new GM.
My thoughts exactly. From Ponder and Bridgewater to Patterson and Treadwell. I could have done a better job by watching college football and youtube videos. Vikings can do better than what they have been. That falls on Spielman.
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Re: Rick Spielman, what should the Vikes do with him

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

Ok listen Jim, we get into the same Rick Spielman battles every year. And we continue to repeat the same things over and over. I will respectfully end it with, agree to disagree. :D
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Re: Rick Spielman, what should the Vikes do with him

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

CbusVikesFan wrote: My thoughts exactly. From Ponder and Bridgewater to Patterson and Treadwell. I could have done a better job by watching college football and youtube videos. Vikings can do better than what they have been. That falls on Spielman.
ENOUGH with Treadwell!!! Nobody has any idea what kind of WR he will turn into. Arguably the #1 thing that drives me crazy the most on this board are guys calling rookies busts. Especially one that barely has any kind of sample size to be judged on.

Everyone did the same thing last year with Trae Waynes.

....."Wow he isnt playing what a bust"

....."He gets burnt when he goes in, he's a bust"

....."Great job drafting a bust Spielman"

Havent you guys learned yet???




and to add onto that, Bridgewater and Ponder arent comparable IMO. But please let's not get that train up and running again
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Re: Rick Spielman, what should the Vikes do with him

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Thaumaturgist wrote: Umm.. No, actually Childress had the final say over the 53 man roster, AND the draft picks.
Childress had final say over the 53 man roster but as far as Ive been able to ascertain over the years, not over the draft picks. I've read more than once over the years, from good sources, that it was Spielman who made the final call on draft day. The idea was that he and Childress were supposed to work together. There are always other voices in the room but when it came to draft picks, supposedly the final call was Spielman's. I'm pretty sure he even clarified that himself at one point but I can't seem to find that comment anywhere. :(

Here's what Kevin Siefert, who did an excellent job covering the Vikes for the Star Tribune during that era (and was then snapped up to write for ESPN on the national level), had to say about it in 2012, after Spielman was promoted:

How much authority did Rick Spielman get?
Spielman has spent nearly five years as the Vikings' vice president of player personnel, part of a three-man leadership committee we've sometimes referred to as the "Triangle of Authority." Spielman ran the personnel department and had final say over the draft. The coach -- Brad Childress and later Leslie Frazier -- presided over on-field operations. Rob Brzezinski, the longtime vice president of football operations, negotiated contracts and managed the salary cap.

All three corners of the Triangle reported directly to owner Zygi Wilf, meaning big-picture and long-term decisions were required to be made as a group. The checks-and-balance theory sounds good in principle but doesn't always work in practice. In football franchises stocked with Type A personalities, it helps to know who is in charge. During Wilf's ownership tenure, that basic question has always been unanswerable.
When I wrote that Spielman was arguably the single biggest influence on player personnel during those years, it was on the basis of his role as VP of Player Personnel, running the scouting department and the draft. Those are pretty significant positions in regard to personnel. He didn't get to call the shots in free agency or on the final 53-man roster but the nature of his position meant he had a very heavy influence on personnel. Also, as you know, "arguably" does not mean 'definitively". :) There's certainly a case to be made that Childress was actually more influential in terms of personnel decisions. Either way, Spielman was a major voice within the organization as part of the triangular management structure the Wilfs set up.
I think the point is we don't really know how much say he really had in things. And I'm with you on Spielman.
I'll put it this way: his role in scouting players and preparing for the draft is crystal clear and more than one account says he had final say on those picks as well. The point is his overall influence on the team during the years prior to 2012 shouldn't be casually dismissed.
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Re: Rick Spielman, what should the Vikes do with him

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Pondering Her Percy wrote: Exactly. I've continued to say this for the past however many years I've been on this board and some continue to act like they know what goes on behind closed doors.
"Some", eh? ;)

Honestly, that's not what I'm doing. I'm relaying what I have read from typically reliable sources like the Pioneer Press, Star Tribune and ESPN over the years. It's hard to go back and find 8 or 9 year old reports but I was paying attention back in '07, '08, etc. because I was looking for answers and clarity on this very subject. I just posted a quote from Kevin Siefert that clarifies this issue and he was covering the Vikes daily during those years.
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Re: Rick Spielman, what should the Vikes do with him

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Pondering Her Percy wrote:Ok listen Jim, we get into the same Rick Spielman battles every year. And we continue to repeat the same things over and over. I will respectfully end it with, agree to disagree. :D
Fair enough, Mike! :)
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Re: Rick Spielman, what should the Vikes do with him

Post by chicagopurple »

you really think the GM doesnt get the final say in the draft when HE is in charged of hiring/firing all the scouts under him? that doesnt make much sense. I never got he impression that the Wilfs are hands on owners who interfere.......
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Re: Rick Spielman, what should the Vikes do with him

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CbusVikesFan wrote:My thoughts exactly. From Ponder and Bridgewater to Patterson and Treadwell. I could have done a better job by watching college football and youtube videos. Vikings can do better than what they have been. That falls on Spielman.
:lol: I've had the same thought.
chicagopurple wrote:you really think the GM doesnt get the final say in the draft when HE is in charged of hiring/firing all the scouts under him? that doesnt make much sense. I never got he impression that the Wilfs are hands on owners who interfere.......
I think we all agree Spielman has final say in the draft now. we were discussing the Triangle of Authority years, prior to 2012.
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Re: Rick Spielman, what should the Vikes do with him

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So all of you so called experts think that Treadwell is a bust, he hasn't had enough snaps to make that call on him. Ask a San Diego fan if they still think that Melvin Gordon is a bust, after last season most fans and NFL analysts were, but people in the organization knew better. They knew that a injury depleted O line and a rookie that was pressing too hard were the real reasons behind his performance, I'm sure that those same fans calling him a bust are glad to still have him.
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Re: Rick Spielman, what should the Vikes do with him

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

chicagopurple wrote:you really think the GM doesnt get the final say in the draft when HE is in charged of hiring/firing all the scouts under him? that doesnt make much sense. I never got he impression that the Wilfs are hands on owners who interfere.......
Rick Spielman wasnt promoted to General Manager until 2012. Prior to that, it's somewhat of a mystery as to who was calling the shots on draft day
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Re: Rick Spielman, what should the Vikes do with him

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Husker Vike wrote:So all of you so called experts think that Treadwell is a bust, he hasn't had enough snaps to make that call on him. Ask a San Diego fan if they still think that Melvin Gordon is a bust, after last season most fans and NFL analysts were, but people in the organization knew better. They knew that a injury depleted O line and a rookie that was pressing too hard were the real reasons behind his performance, I'm sure that those same fans calling him a bust are glad to still have him.
Exactly! Troy Williamson was a bust. Got legitimate playing time and had horrendous hands. Treadwell has gotten little playing time and it's tough to judge any aspects of his game. Just because he didnt have a two game flurry like Will Fuller had, everyone calls him a bust. That's the thing. Too many people are worried about comparing him to other rookies in the league. Rather than understanding that we had two surprises with Thielen and Patterson this year and Diggs is Diggs. Relax people
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Re: Rick Spielman, what should the Vikes do with him

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here is what i'm puzzled about and maybe all of you aristotle's can enlighten me. on what planet is our defense GREAT? we gave up a 90 yard drive on thanksgiving, and a 60 yard drive in 20 something seconds to detroit TWICE. not once, but twice. we are nowhere close to a superbowl team on any level.
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Re: Rick Spielman, what should the Vikes do with him

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mosscarter wrote:here is what i'm puzzled about and maybe all of you aristotle's can enlighten me. on what planet is our defense GREAT? we gave up a 90 yard drive on thanksgiving, and a 60 yard drive in 20 something seconds to detroit TWICE. not once, but twice. we are nowhere close to a superbowl team on any level.
Not sure which planet, but it definitely has never seen the likes of the Seattle Seahawks defense. And all things being relative, we got dubbed elite! :lol:

I agree. We are developing into a very good D, but we're not elite yet. It's easy to miss that point, though, when our O is smelling this bad.
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