SHould Rick get a pay cut or just a cut

[PurpleKoolaid]

How come Rick can find us a QB to be a back-up (or eventually starter)? I mean Ponder and Webb are just embarrasments. Or does Rick get embarassed, as long as that fat wad of cash come home every week. I know more about Olinement I would have wanted, and wouldnt have hurted the secondary NEARLY as bad as the Oline has hurt (AD) and will continue to eat away at the Oline. Does Rick have no shame? Does he think and want to try and spin Kalil is really good.

And Treadwell. WTF is going on with him. Never see the field, isnt hurt. Mix things up, more Theiein, CP, Wright and Treadwill. Less Scott and Norv Turner. We are 2-0. Carolina is going to destroy us. Make some kind of move Rick. Talk to Turner. If we have to, just throw the ball to Kyle, Diggs, Mckinnon, and please, CP.

[IrishViking]

How come Rick can find us a QB to be a back-up (or eventually starter)? I mean Ponder and Webb are just embarrasments. Or does Rick get embarassed, as long as that fat wad of cash come home every week. I know more about Olinement I would have wanted, and wouldnt have hurted the secondary NEARLY as bad as the Oline has hurt (AD) and will continue to eat away at the Oline. Does Rick have no shame? Does he think and want to try and spin Kalil is really good.

And Treadwell. WTF is going on with him. Never see the field, isnt hurt. Mix things up, more Theiein, CP, Wright and Treadwill. Less Scott and Norv Turner. We are 2-0. Carolina is going to destroy us. Make some kind of move Rick. Talk to Turner. If we have to, just throw the ball to Kyle, Diggs, Mckinnon, and please, CP.

He got us Bradford. You bash him in one sentence then praise the players hes drafted in the next. He hired Zimmer.

Treadwell is a coaches choice. These two already have a track record of sitting players until they are 100% up to speed.

[mansquatch]

Perhaps you've been enjoying our defense this season? I'm sure Spielman had nothing to do with that roster...

[Mothman]

He got us Bradford. You bash him in one sentence then praise the players hes drafted in the next. He hired Zimmer.

Perhaps you've been enjoying our defense this season? I'm sure Spielman had nothing to do with that roster...

To me, this thread and the comments above represent the "Spielman Dilemma" in a nutshell. For every positive there's a negative. He can be bashed and praised at the same time because he does bash-worthy and praise-worthy things as an executive.

Yes, Spielman hired Zimmer. Yes, I am enjoying the defense. You know what I haven't enjoyed too much the last two years and the first two weeks of this season? The offense. As a head coach, thus far Zimmer has been a fantastic defensive coordinator. Okay, he's been a little more than that. He's been a genuine leader too. My point is the defense has been steadily rising under his guidance but the offense has declined to become one of the least effective in the NFL. Maybe this is the year it will get better and maybe it isn't but again, this is the Spielman era in a nutshell. It's yin and yang, good and bad, advances and setbacks.

There are reasons to praise him as a GM but there ARE reasons to seriously criticize him too. Both the praise and criticism are legitimate.

[mansquatch]

Jim, the OP wants to dock his pay and/or fire him. That is far more extreme than saying "somethings are good / some are bad."

One is reasonable, one is not.

Whenever this topic comes up I always go back to this question: Spielman is good/bad as compare to?

The OL is not looking so hot right now, but it might improve. I think it will get better, but it will be a new york miracle if it actually becomes good. Criticism is deserved, but it also requires context. What choices were available that we didn't make? It might be that our defense is great in part because selected that talent over OL talent. Probably not entirely, but that is part of it.

The place where i think he deserves equal hazing (along with Norv) is WR. We have two 1st round WR on our roster and neither is starting, in fact I think together the two of them have seen like 4 snaps in the regular season. Our two most prolific pass catchers are a 5th round pick and an undrafted overachiever from Mankato. I'm glad they found the latter two, but WTF on the first two?

Depsite the obvious offensive roster mediocrity, I think Rick is at worst an above average GM league wide. Also, Zimmer deserves a ton of credit as HC and not just a DC. This team has GRIT. The offense might not be great, but as a whole this team fights until the bitter end. That is all Zimmer, less we forget what it was like under Frasier/Childress/Tice. No longer are we asking questions about adjustments, bungled clock managment, piss poor game management decisions, etc. It isn't perfect, but it is lot better than we've seen in a long time.

[Mothman]

Jim, the OP wants to dock his pay and/or fire him. That is far more extreme than saying "somethings are good / some are bad."

One is reasonable, one is not.

I agree but I wasn't responding to the OP, just the overall theme of Spielman and the job he's doing. Perhaps I should have made that clear.

Whenever this topic comes up I always go back to this question: Spielman is good/bad as compare to?

Presumably to other GMs but I think the comparison is less important than assessing how well he's performed in the jobs he's been tasked to do and IF he has the right stuff to build a champion. That's the real bottom line as far as I'm concerned because after more than half a century of existence, the Vikings still don't have a Super Bowl win. It's been 40+ years since they've even made it to the big game. Where Spielman falls on the spectrum of NFL GMs seems less important to me than whether he can guide the Vikings to that elusive championship win.

The OL is not looking so hot right now, but it might improve. I think it will get better, but it will be a new york miracle if it actually becomes good. Criticism is deserved, but it also requires context. What choices were available that we didn't make?

Literally dozens, over years. What we see is a cumulative effect of numerous decisions. Things don't just reset every offseason. Spielman has presided over the Vikings draft for a decade and he's been GM for 4 years and 5 offseasons now.

Depsite the obvious offensive roster mediocrity, I think Rick is at worst an above average GM league wide.

If that's not good enough to win a Super Bowl, it's not good enough.

Also, Zimmer deserves a ton of credit as HC and not just a DC. This team has GRIT. The offense might not be great, but as a whole this team fights until the bitter end.

As I said, he's been a genuine leader. That's great but it doesn't change that we've seen the defense rise and the offense sink.

That is all Zimmer, less we forget what it was like under Frasier/Childress/Tice.

Apparently we have because some of those teams had grit too.

No longer are we asking questions about adjustments, bungled clock managment, piss poor game management decisions, etc. It isn't perfect, but it is lot better than we've seen in a long time.

I'm still not convinced what we're seeing is better than what we've seen in a long time. It's different. The defense is better than it's been in a long time but a defense isn't a complete football team. There are fewer complaints but for some reason, since Zimmer arrived in MN many Vikings fans have shown nothing but faith in him, treating a first time head coach as if he's already a proven, great head coach. I understand that football fans love a coach who walks and talks like they believe a coach should but like the man who hired him, Zimmer still has a lot to prove. You say it's better than it's been but i still see questionable use of personnel, a team that looks unprepared at times, that fails to make adjustments, that's often too conservative, etc. These are issue fans complained about a lot under Tice, under Childress and under Frazier but somehow, Zimmer's quickly endeared himself to fans in a way most of his predecessors didn't and while he's still criticized, there's considerably less of it.

The jury's still out, on Spielman and Zimmer.

[mansquatch]

Here is a stat line for you:

Worst rated QB in PFF week 1: Marcus Mariota
Worst rated QB in PFF week 2: Aaron Rogers

Hmm....


On the GM thing. You have to compare Rick to other GMs. If you say "It wasn't enough to win the SB" then your qualification is that they GM has to do enough to win the big game. OK, so then you have to get a recent SB winner to part with their GM which seems EXTREMELY unlikely. A better approach might be to ask what approach are the winning GMs using. Of course, that is all over the map. On one hand you have Ted Thompson in 2010 who basically only builds through the draft and NEVER signs Free Agents. More recently you have John Elway who fired a coaching staff and brought in a lot of expensive FA talent to win the game, much of which left in the offseason due to salary cap.

Both approaches worked. So is it that Spielman is worse than these two? I'm not so sure. I think the net we are casting isn't wide enough.

[Dames]

Here is a stat line for you:

Worst rated QB in PFF week 1: Marcus Mariota
Worst rated QB in PFF week 2: Aaron Rogers

Hmm....

That's beautiful. Week 3: Cam

[Mothman]

Here is a stat line for you:

Worst rated QB in PFF week 1: Marcus Mariota
Worst rated QB in PFF week 2: Aaron Rogers

Hmm....

As I said, Zimmer knows defense and his expertise is evident on this Vikings team. That's not an area in which I'm criticizing him. Those stats are awesome though!

On the GM thing. You have to compare Rick to other GMs. If you say "It wasn't enough to win the SB" then your qualification is that they GM has to do enough to win the big game. OK, so then you have to get a recent SB winner to part with their GM which seems EXTREMELY unlikely.

... or find and promote someone who might have what it takes to be the next GM to put together a Super Bowl winner.

A better approach might be to ask what approach are the winning GMs using. Of course, that is all over the map. On one hand you have Ted Thompson in 2010 who basically only builds through the draft and NEVER signs Free Agents. More recently you have John Elway who fired a coaching staff and brought in a lot of expensive FA talent to win the game, much of which left in the offseason due to salary cap.

Both approaches worked. So is it that Spielman is worse than these two? I'm not so sure. I think the net we are casting isn't wide enough.

I don't understand what you mean re: casting the net.

I'll gladly stipulate that winning GMs use a variety of approaches, as do winning teams. I'm just saying the Vikings need to find their path to success and their patience with Spielman can't be infinite. They can't just settle for a moderate level of success. I don't know if Spielman can assemble a Super Bowl winning team or not. There are signs he might be capable of it and signs that he doesn't quite have whatever it takes. As I said above, the jury's still out but the Vikings can't wait forever and by that I mean at some point, if his draft, free agent and hiring successes don't add up to that higher level of success, the team needs to go in a different direction. I don't think we're at that point now but I do think we should be questioning if Spielman has the vision, the instincts, the overall knack for team-building necessary to build a champion. This is his 5th year as GM, the 6th since Childress was fired and a serious rebuild began. How many years should he get? I honestly don't know the answer to that question but there has to be a limit, a point at which the team moves in another direction if their goal hasn't been met.

[Thaumaturgist]

Overall I think Rick and Co. have done a poor job of scouting along the OLine. Just name anyone that they have drafted that worked out well.

Willie Beavers: No
T.J. Clemmings - Jurry is still out, but didn't look good last year.
Tyrus Thompson: No
Austin Shepherd: No
David Yankey: No
Jeff Baca: No
Travis Bond: No
Matt Kalil: Not looking like it.
Demarcus Love: No
Brandon Fusco: Maybe...
Chris Degeare: No
Phil Loadhoalt: Mostly...
John Sullivan: Not really...

Now, IMHO that's a POOR track record. That's since 2007.. So 10 years of IMHO not doing enough in the draft.

[Mothman]

Overall I think Rick and Co. have done a poor job of scouting along the OLine. Just name anyone that they have drafted that worked out well.

Willie Beavers: No
T.J. Clemmings - Jurry is still out, but didn't look good last year.
Tyrus Thompson: No
Austin Shepherd: No
David Yankey: No
Jeff Baca: No
Travis Bond: No
Matt Kalil: Not looking like it.
Demarcus Love: No
Brandon Fusco: Maybe...
Chris Degeare: No
Phil Loadhoalt: Mostly...
John Sullivan: Not really...

Now, IMHO that's a POOR track record. That's since 2007.. So 10 years of IMHO not doing enough in the draft.

I think Sullivan has to be considered an OL pick that worked out well. He had a good career as a starter for the Vikes. however, I agree with the point you're making. I made a similar point here the other day. In 10 years of drafting, it's hard to even name a handful of OL the Vikings have drafted that have worked out well for more than a season.

[Thaumaturgist]

I think Sullivan has to be considered an OL pick that worked out well. He had a good career as a starter for the Vikes. however, I agree with the point you're making. I made a similar point here the other day. In 10 years of drafting, it's hard to even name a handful of OL the Vikings have drafted that have worked out well for more than a season.

You're probably right with Sullivan. Just bad luck/injuries with that.

[PurpleKoolaid]

He got us Bradford. You bash him in one sentence then praise the players hes drafted in the next. He hired Zimmer.

Treadwell is a coaches choice. These two already have a track record of sitting players until they are 100% up to speed.

You havent listed all the busts he been a part of, ever since ge was VP for player personal. And some think hes so kind of draft god. I think his lastest picks, some of his better picks have had more to do with zimmer. I dont think Rick is the worst, but there are tons of examples where he isnt the best, just sort of average. And Bradford's played one game. Lets hope hes the man, and if so, the resign him at the right time.

[PurpleKoolaid]

Overall I think Rick and Co. have done a poor job of scouting along the OLine. Just name anyone that they have drafted that worked out well.

Willie Beavers: No
T.J. Clemmings - Jurry is still out, but didn't look good last year.
Tyrus Thompson: No
Austin Shepherd: No
David Yankey: No
Jeff Baca: No
Travis Bond: No
Matt Kalil: Not looking like it.
Demarcus Love: No
Brandon Fusco: Maybe...
Chris Degeare: No
Phil Loadhoalt: Mostly...
John Sullivan: Not really...

Now, IMHO that's a POOR track record. That's since 2007.. So 10 years of IMHO not doing enough in the draft.

This was going to be my next post, but you did it well, so I wont.

Anyother thing people have to remember, some of these great Defensive guy we have on the team, are due most (if not all) to Zimmer). He threw their name out there, and Rick sai sure, as long as I get an extra pick, or a freak of nature. Juat because everyone like Kalil, doesnt let Rick off the hook. Or Boone, or Smith, or all the other crap we had on the line, the same type of crap we had last year. Rick has to pick up his game, find some Oline guys and some decent backup QB, so we dont have to see our future to get one to play for us. It seem soooooo long sing we had 2 decent QBs ons this team playing. But maybe thats frustration talking. I just get tired of the 'Rick is a "genius" talk.

[IrishViking]

You havent listed all the busts he been a part of, ever since ge was VP for player personal. And some think hes so kind of draft god. I think his lastest picks, some of his better picks have had more to do with zimmer. I dont think Rick is the worst, but there are tons of examples where he isnt the best, just sort of average. And Bradford's played one game. Lets hope hes the man, and if so, the resign him at the right time.

Now you are just doing the opposite of what you are accusing us of; All good picks were 100% zimmer or someone else, all bad picks are solely on Speilman?


Who's to say that Speilman didnt want to draft Olinemen in the last couple of drafts but Zimmer requested a focus on defense first?

Its just hilarious the double standard. No one is saying he should be given a free pass, but anyone who doesn't give Spielmen credit for the improving defense and finding playmakers on both sides of the ball has no credibility when complaining about him.