Alex Boone

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mansquatch
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Re: Alex Boone

Post by mansquatch »

Every team is that way though. DEN had an awful OL last year and they won the SB. The Panther D, which is formidable is really not that fantastic in the secondary, especially after losing Norman. With the salary cap, quantity of draft picks, and overall competitiveness of the NFL there just isn't enough talent out there to be great everywhere.

That being said, our OL is BAD, and even if it is under invested, it is reasonable to expect it to be better than what we've seen the past two weeks. I do not expect them to be 1998 good (that team had big defensive questions if you may recall) but I expect them to at least make some plays and be marginally competitive.
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Mothman
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Re: Alex Boone

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IrishViking wrote:I will not say our GM deserves a pass but remember where we were just 3-4 years ago.
10-6 and in the playoffs? ;)
I started to do a big write up on it but ended up deleting it, basically broke down every drafts first two rounds and pointed out which Olinemen we could have gotten, what we would have had to give up, and how well certain Olineman panned out. We had no secondary, a depleted linebacking core, no wide receivers, and our Dline had recently lost the William wall. There where a couple of standouts we could have gotten, at the expense of Bridgwater, Barr, Smith.

I don't want to get into a hindsight debate but i don't think people Remeber just how complete our rebuild needs were a few years ago. If you could improve everything at once everyone would win the superbowl. What if we had no Linebackers, or our secondary sucked again (see 20 years prior to zimmer) or we got coverage sacks because we had no WRs?

Again, no pass, the oline needs attention but it's not like he just ignored it and reinforced strong spots for 5 years. Haha our whole team was a need in 2010.
This is a pretty frequent argument in defense of Spielman but again, I'd point to his 10 year drafting history as well as the last 3-4 years. The former informs the latter. I recall the scale of the rebuild quite well. I also think we're talking about some differences in choices and philosophy. To me, the line of scrimmage is where a team should begin and focus their rebuild, not something that should be left to the end. It's not an area that should be neglected or considered of secondary importance. That's where games are won and lost. Also, let's not forget that Spielman has traded away quite a few picks during this rebuilding period. We can debate the merits of those choices but they did represent opportunities to select more players. In other words, he didn't necessarily have to "rob Peter to pay Paul" and pass on an LB here or a S there to select more o-line prospects.
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Mothman
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Re: Alex Boone

Post by Mothman »

mansquatch wrote:Every team is that way though.
I disagree. Every team has strengths and weaknesses but I don't think they all have crippling weaknesses.
DEN had an awful OL last year and they won the SB. The Panther D, which is formidable is really not that fantastic in the secondary, especially after losing Norman. With the salary cap, quantity of draft picks, and overall competitiveness of the NFL there just isn't enough talent out there to be great everywhere.
I agree but there's a world of difference between being great everywhere and absolutely stinking in a critical area (or areas).
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Re: Alex Boone

Post by IrishViking »

Mothman wrote:This is a pretty frequent argument in defense of Spielman but again, I'd point to his 10 year drafting history as well as the last 3-4 years. The former informs the latter. I recall the scale of the rebuild quite well. I also think we're talking about some differences in choices and philosophy. To me, the line of scrimmage is where a team should begin and focus their rebuild, not something that should be left to the end. It's not an area that should be neglected or considered of secondary importance. That's where games are won and lost. Also, let's not forget that Spielman has traded away quite a few picks during this rebuilding period. We can debate the merits of those choices but they did represent opportunities to select more players. In other words, he didn't necessarily have to "rob Peter to pay Paul" and pass on an LB here or a S there to select more o-line prospects.
He drafted Sullivan, Loadholt, Kalil, Picked up Joe Berger, Boone, Smith and several others.

He averages picking up a highly rated pick or a sought after free agent every other year and has had moderate success with late round draft picks. I fail to see where this drought of attention is when you accept that sometime injuries happen. :confused:

The average career length for a player who makes the 53 man roster is 6 years. so assuming that, he is ahead of the curve.
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Mothman
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Re: Alex Boone

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IrishViking wrote:He drafted Sullivan, Loadholt, Kalil, Picked up Joe Berger, Boone, Smith and several others.
He drafted Loadholt 8 years ago, Sullivan 9 years ago. That's ancient history at this point. Both players have essentially had entire NFL careers at this point.
He averages picking up a highly rated pick or a sought after free agent every other year and has had moderate success with late round draft picks. I fail to see where this drought of attention is when you accept that sometime injuries happen. :confused:
I realize they've signed free agents and drafted some linemen over the years. They've fielded a line every year so it's not like anybody's claiming they haven't had or acquired linemen. :) Consequently, listing them doesn't make much of an argument in opposition to my point which, as I've said repeatedly, is there's been a failure to acquire and develop enough quality o-linemen and to build good depth along the line. At most, I count 4 quality OL drafted and developed in the past decade of drafting: Loadholt, Sullivan, Kalil and Fusco... and that's if you consider Kalil and Fusco "quality linemen", which is obviously debatable.
The average career length for a player who makes the 53 man roster is 6 years. so assuming that, he is ahead of the curve.
How? :confused:
mansquatch
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Re: Alex Boone

Post by mansquatch »

I'm not making excuses for Spielman on the OL, I believe my above post was quite pointed on this topic. I'm just pointing out that every team has a weakness. The OL is pretty bad right now, but is it enough to count us out? The recent SF teams that went the NFCCG / SB all had highly touted Offensive Lines and they never won the big game. Dallas currently has the best OL in football and they suck. Just as a bad OL is a weakness, a good one is no guarrantee of success.

The question of whether this current Vikings OL is too much to overcome remains open, IMO, we are 2-0 and just beat a team that is built defensively to rush the passer. Is it too much to overcome to hoist the Lombardi Trophy? That question is reamins open IMO. The OL certainly isn't helping, but it isn't an automatic fail on the season.

Also with Kalil hitting IR today, it probably safe to blame his performance on injuries. Not looking to get into a debate on Kalil, just pointing out the obvious that he wasn't at 100%. So a fair question to ask at this point is if his replacement would have done better that he did last Sunday, ergo the performance was saw was not indicative of the norm due to injury? I think that is fair. This obviously doesn't mean they are suddenly going to be great, but that maybe we've seen a low point. FWIW, I think average is this group's ceiling. I'd be happy if I am underestimating them.

The question that matters is if the inferiority of this group is enough to count us out of the big dance. We'll get a good idea of this on Sunday.
Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi
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Re: Alex Boone

Post by Nunin »

I also think the next game is a huge litmus test.
As to what it takes to hoist a Lombardi? IMO I don't believe there is a definitive set of values on offense or defense. On offense you have to be able to get the ball in the hands of playmakers consistently while being able to avoid tipping your hand or being too predictable on any given day. And you have to have a stout defense that can make another team one dimentional while also having the ability to make big plays.
Last years playoffs and superbowls came down to just a handful of plays total.
Lot of luck involved too.
Execution and heart. This Vikng team is a good football team...now we get to see what they're really made of.
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Mothman
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Re: Alex Boone

Post by Mothman »

mansquatch wrote:I'm not making excuses for Spielman on the OL, I believe my above post was quite pointed on this topic. I'm just pointing out that every team has a weakness. The OL is pretty bad right now, but is it enough to count us out? The recent SF teams that went the NFCCG / SB all had highly touted Offensive Lines and they never won the big game. Dallas currently has the best OL in football and they suck. Just as a bad OL is a weakness, a good one is no guarrantee of success.

The question of whether this current Vikings OL is too much to overcome remains open, IMO, we are 2-0 and just beat a team that is built defensively to rush the passer. Is it too much to overcome to hoist the Lombardi Trophy? That question is reamins open IMO. The OL certainly isn't helping, but it isn't an automatic fail on the season.

Also with Kalil hitting IR today, it probably safe to blame his performance on injuries. Not looking to get into a debate on Kalil, just pointing out the obvious that he wasn't at 100%. So a fair question to ask at this point is if his replacement would have done better that he did last Sunday, ergo the performance was saw was not indicative of the norm due to injury? I think that is fair. This obviously doesn't mean they are suddenly going to be great, but that maybe we've seen a low point. FWIW, I think average is this group's ceiling. I'd be happy if I am underestimating them.

The question that matters is if the inferiority of this group is enough to count us out of the big dance. We'll get a good idea of this on Sunday.
All I was trying to say is not all team weaknesses are equal. Some are worse than others. The Vikings have a knack for huge, glaring, weaknesses. I don't know if this one will keep them out of the big dance but it's sure going to make getting there and winning a LOT tougher.
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halfgiz
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Re: Alex Boone

Post by halfgiz »

I think we take it one game at a time and see where it takes us. :govikes:
IrishViking
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Re: Alex Boone

Post by IrishViking »

halfgiz wrote:I think we take it one game at a time and see where it takes us. :govikes:

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Who let this guy in?
mansquatch
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Re: Alex Boone

Post by mansquatch »

Dare I say that an OL without a liability at LT due to injury might be better this week. Although probably not much better. This will set the whole "GEL" think back some time as well.

It is a mistake to think that if they "gel" they'll be great or even really good. (Although the coaching staff seems to think the current group gives us the best shot to win, right or wrong.) However, it is also a mistake to under estimate the important of them achieving some "gel" (I'm really sick of that word) as a unit. I've cited this a few times: Iupati, one of the best guards in the NFL, went to AZ from SF last season and spent over half the year playing under par until he developed cohesion and trust with his new teammates. So it isn't a stretch to say the gel thing matters.

I hated the early bye week last year. I"m actually thankful for it this season.
Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi
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