The Vikings might have the NFL's most complete roster

A forum for the hard core Minnesota Vikings fan. Discuss upcoming games, opponents, trades, draft or what ever is on the minds of Viking fans!

Moderator: Moderators

Jordysghost
Packers Suck
Posts: 2992
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:40 pm

Re: The Vikings might have the NFL's most complete roster

Post by Jordysghost »

Cliff wrote: So by your logic, QBR just needs to exist for another 10 or so years and then it'll be relevant?

What are you even talking about in 2011? Tim Tebow's QBR for 2011 was 29.5 and Rodger's was 86.2. Tebow might have had a higher QBR for a week. Rodgers led the league in QBR that season as well.

Speaking of things out of the passer's control and stats taking them into account, how about average yards gained per attempt in the passer rating formula?
I never implied anything of the sort. I said that passer rating isn't better. Passer rating basically ignores QBs who are strong runners but only average passers. However they *can* be better quarterbacks. The QBR isn't great either (like I said above) but at least it tries (noticed I said tries) to incorporate more than just passing for a quarterback.
When was it 'discredited'? Is there even a player stat that could actually discredit it? All of these stats are pretty subjective.

Anyway, when I put QBR next to passer rating and look at it for last season I'm not sure which I trust more. Many of them are very close (Carson Palmer was 1st in both), here are some of the larger discrepancies:

Tom Brady 11th in QBR, Passer rating 4th
Matt Stafford 14th QBR, passer rating 9th
Ben Roethlisberger 2nd QBR, passer rating 11th
Philip Rivers 20th QBR, passer rating 12th
Aaron Rodgers 10th QBR, passer rating 15th
Derek Carr 25th QBR, passer rating 19th
Bridgewater 13th QBR, passer rating 21st
Ryan Fitzpatrick 12th QBR, 24th passer rating

QBR says these were the top 10 QBs last year (in order):
Carson Palmer
Ben Roethlisberger
Drew Brees
Russell Wilson
Andy Dalton
Kirk Cousins
Tyrod Taylor
Alex Smith
Cam Newton
Aaron Rodgers

Passer rating says these are the top ten (in order):
Carson Palmer
Russell Wilson
Andy Dalton
Tom Brady
Kirk Cousins
Drew Brees
Tyrod Taylor
Cam Newton
Matthew Stafford
Alex Smith

Mostly they agree the same QBs should be in the top 10.

Passer rating bumps Stafford up to the top ten and pushes Brady in (he was 11th in QBR).
QBR pushes Roethlisberger to the top 10 (he was 11th) and Rodgers into the top 10.

Aside from what exact spot a player should be in the top 10, they pretty much agree. Passer rating certainly isn't far enough away from QBR to say it's "discredited".

It feels weird even having this conversation and "defending" QBR. I'm not, really ... just against passer rating lol
Sorry, I was confused and thinking of when Tebow's QBR against thye Chargers asininely had him ahead of Rodgers MVP caliber performance that same week, my mistake.

Thats the thing though, passer rating isnt trying to measure a QBs performance as a player, but moreso his performance as a PASSER, a lot of the problem with QBR is ( as I mentioned earlier) the undue amount of credit they get for perceived situational football and running ability, while discrediting QBs for sacks taken and YAC. (The latter of which makes absolultely no sense, as penalizing a QB for his WRS YAC essentially penalizes a player for his offensive system, YAC is very much a reflection of a QBs ability to put the ball where it needs to be, make pre snap adjustmants, and otherwise just attack the Defense)

I just dont see a system that penalizes QBs for YAC and sacks taken and rewards QB for rushing yards and situational results, it seems like they just tossed darts at a board to determine what matters and what doesnt.
"Follow my lead today, whos goona be the big dog with me?" - Aaron Rodgers, February 6th, 2011
mondry
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8455
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:53 pm

Re: The Vikings might have the NFL's most complete roster

Post by mondry »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: You are certainly correct about the signs of improvement. He also led them back against the Bears in Chicago. That being said, he also fumbled away games against Denver and Arizona, although credit must be given for getting the Vikes in position to win against the Cards. Teddy has taken steps, but they seem small to me. It's hard to tell ... is he being held back by the playbook? Or is he just not (yet) able to make some plays?

I think Treadwell could make a difference for Teddy this year. I know Treadwell is a rookie, but he gives the Vikings what they have lacked -- a big possession receiver who competes for 50-50 balls and wins. Those are the guys you need in the fourth quarter of tight games, not guys who can run 4.3 in a straight line (a la Mike Wallace).

I'm really hoping TB takes a bigger stride forward in his progress this year, something where really see the needle move. If he does, we have a chance to make a postseason run because we do have a solid roster of well-coached players.
I think you have to keep in mind just how dysfunctional his surroundings were last season.

You bring up the fumbles against denver and arizona but we analyzed those to death and figured out Kalil got tossed like a ragdoll half a second into the arizona one and Denver's D made the MVP give up in the super bowl. By comparison Teddy performed better IN DENVER than cam did on a neutral field.

Anyway, I think we've all made up our mind's about Teddy long ago so we just have to wait and see what happens next year.
User avatar
chicagopurple
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1498
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:45 am
x 88

Re: The Vikings might have the NFL's most complete roster

Post by chicagopurple »

Teddy's protection sucked, as did the run blocking for AP....that is undeniable.
BUT....it is pretty clear that when Teddy DID throw deep he did so with poor accuracy and wimpy strength. You cant blame that on the OL. He has got to show an improved downfield game this year. He has had 2 off seasons to muscle up and practice. If this year he continues to show only a dink and dunk passing game, it will be time to move on. You can not win without at least the remote threat of a deep passing game.
Cliff
Site Admin
Posts: 9489
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 5:51 pm
Location: Kentucky
x 432

Re: The Vikings might have the NFL's most complete roster

Post by Cliff »

Jordysghost wrote: Sorry, I was confused and thinking of when Tebow's QBR against thye Chargers asininely had him ahead of Rodgers MVP caliber performance that same week, my mistake.

Thats the thing though, passer rating isnt trying to measure a QBs performance as a player, but moreso his performance as a PASSER, a lot of the problem with QBR is ( as I mentioned earlier) the undue amount of credit they get for perceived situational football and running ability, while discrediting QBs for sacks taken and YAC. (The latter of which makes absolultely no sense, as penalizing a QB for his WRS YAC essentially penalizes a player for his offensive system, YAC is very much a reflection of a QBs ability to put the ball where it needs to be, make pre snap adjustmants, and otherwise just attack the Defense)

I just dont see a system that penalizes QBs for YAC and sacks taken and rewards QB for rushing yards and situational results, it seems like they just tossed darts at a board to determine what matters and what doesnt.
I guess I don't see why you would want to disregard everything but passing. That's not all a quarterback does so why wouldn't you look at all of that stuff? If you were looking at a running back would you not gauge his performance based on both rushing *and* his ability as a receiver? What about his ability to block?

Does a QBs rushing stat still not matter if he got 1,000 rushing yards? Mike Vick had over 1000+ rushing yards in 2006. Do you really not consider that when talking about how good of a quarterback he was?

Again, this isn't an argument that QBR is so much better ... but I'd rather have a stat that at least tries to account for other things.

I also don't think they're penalized for YAC, they just don't get as much credit.
Jordysghost
Packers Suck
Posts: 2992
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:40 pm

Re: The Vikings might have the NFL's most complete roster

Post by Jordysghost »

Cliff wrote: I guess I don't see why you would want to disregard everything but passing. That's not all a quarterback does so why wouldn't you look at all of that stuff? If you were looking at a running back would you not gauge his performance based on both rushing *and* his ability as a receiver? What about his ability to block?

Does a QBs rushing stat still not matter if he got 1,000 rushing yards? Mike Vick had over 1000+ rushing yards in 2006. Do you really not consider that when talking about how good of a quarterback he was?

Again, this isn't an argument that QBR is so much better ... but I'd rather have a stat that at least tries to account for other things.

I also don't think they're penalized for YAC, they just don't get as much credit.
Thats the thing though, passer rating is simply trying to measure passing efficiency, it isnt trying to be some end all be all statistic like QBR. Rushing doesnt matter in regards to passer rating because it is called PASSER rating, I dont think anyone is trying to say that passer rating is trying to be the great decider in judging the QB, but fundamentally, that is exactly what QBR is trying to do.
"Follow my lead today, whos goona be the big dog with me?" - Aaron Rodgers, February 6th, 2011
fiestavike
Hall of Fame Inductee
Posts: 4959
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:03 am
x 395

Re: The Vikings might have the NFL's most complete roster

Post by fiestavike »

Jordysghost wrote: Thats the thing though, passer rating is simply trying to measure passing efficiency, it isnt trying to be some end all be all statistic like QBR. Rushing doesnt matter in regards to passer rating because it is called PASSER rating, I dont think anyone is trying to say that passer rating is trying to be the great decider in judging the QB, but fundamentally, that is exactly what QBR is trying to do.
What do you think is the great decider in judging QBs?
"You like that!"
-- Cap'n Spazz Cousins
Cliff
Site Admin
Posts: 9489
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 5:51 pm
Location: Kentucky
x 432

Re: The Vikings might have the NFL's most complete roster

Post by Cliff »

Jordysghost wrote:Thats the thing though, passer rating is simply trying to measure passing efficiency, it isnt trying to be some end all be all statistic like QBR. Rushing doesnt matter in regards to passer rating because it is called PASSER rating, I dont think anyone is trying to say that passer rating is trying to be the great decider in judging the QB, but fundamentally, that is exactly what QBR is trying to do.
So because QBR is trying to be a more complete statistic it's worse?

Who cares that it's called PASSER rating. QBR stands for QUARTERBACK rating but who cares what their names are?

PASSER rating is great if all you care about from your quarterback is passing. Quarterbacks do more than that though and so QBR is a bit more desirable to me. Since passing *is* such a big part of what a quarterback does passer rating and QBR are normally pretty close anyway. Ignoring some stats, specifically rushing yards and TDs for a QB in this era doesn't make since.

Even if you remove things like sacks and YAC from consideration rushing yards as part of a QB rating system make sense. It's part of their production and efficiency.
User avatar
halfgiz
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2289
Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:38 pm
x 111

Re: The Vikings might have the NFL's most complete roster

Post by halfgiz »

I'll take a QB that gives me wins any day.
User avatar
chicagopurple
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1498
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:45 am
x 88

Re: The Vikings might have the NFL's most complete roster

Post by chicagopurple »

I will take a QB capable of hitting a downfield receiver......our RB can get us our 2-4 yard gains.
vikeinmontana
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3168
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:23 pm
x 139

Re: The Vikings might have the NFL's most complete roster

Post by vikeinmontana »

always enjoy the qb back and forth. but you guys are making it way too hard. :lol:

we all want a brady or a manning. we'd love a brees or a Rodgers. but these dudes are special. and rare. just a handful of teams are lucky enough to get these guys. in my 35 years of life there have probably been less than 10 "elite" players at this important position. the rest of us suckers need to make do with what we have. some are clearly better than others.

what is crazy to me is to hear these guys called garbage because they're not an elite qb. like calling a surgeon garbage is he isn't the guy called on to fix pro athletes. calling a lawyer garbage if he isn't the top ranked attorney getting the million dollar trials. you have a nice little software startup? that's great. but you're garbage because you're not bill gates. oh you made money on investments? awesome. are you warren buffet? no? then garbage I guess...

teddy might never be joe montana. he's in good company because the other 99% of guys good enough to play the position in the nfl won't be either. but he's shown he's capable of doing some good things. he's young so there is a ton of room for improvement. and he's the guy leading my beloved Vikings hopefully to a championship. that is enough for me. at least until we draft the next tom brady which may be a while...
i'm ready for a beer.
mondry
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8455
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:53 pm

Re: The Vikings might have the NFL's most complete roster

Post by mondry »

Let's see what happens now that we've tweaked the O-line, drafted a much better possession receiver than mike wallace, brought in some more offensive minds for coaches and so on.

Plenty of hall of fame QB's had plenty to work on after just their 2nd season and we've seen plenty examples of good QB's (andrew luck, AAron Rodgers) "regress" when their surroundings crumbled last year and Teddy's circumstances where no where near ideal either.

There's always room for concern with a young QB, it's the hardest and most important position in the sport but I also see plenty of room for excitement and optimism going forward.
User avatar
chicagopurple
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1498
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:45 am
x 88

Re: The Vikings might have the NFL's most complete roster

Post by chicagopurple »

OF Course its exciting, but its also true that the table is all set for him and he MUST show improvement. Last year, he didnt really improve, in fact many analysts say he regressed. NO one it trashing him, but people have very real questions waiting to be answered. Soon he will have the opportunity to prove to everyone that he is a QB capable of leading a team to the Super Bowl. Guys like Flacco arent the same as Brady, but they can lead, and they are capable of the occasional deep pass when needed. THAT is what Teddy needs to show this year. Its pretty simple.
IrishViking
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1631
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:02 am

Re: The Vikings might have the NFL's most complete roster

Post by IrishViking »

chicagopurple wrote:OF Course its exciting, but its also true that the table is all set for him and he MUST show improvement. Last year, he didnt really improve, in fact many analysts say he regressed. NO one it trashing him, but people have very real questions waiting to be answered. Soon he will have the opportunity to prove to everyone that he is a QB capable of leading a team to the Super Bowl. Guys like Flacco arent the same as Brady, but they can lead, and they are capable of the occasional deep pass when needed. THAT is what Teddy needs to show this year. Its pretty simple.

Well hopefully with the Oline improvements and Treadwell Teddy will have more than a handful of legitimate chances this years to prove that to you.
Post Reply