Thanks Jim, I appreciate that.Mothman wrote: ... and now you're in the Twilight Zone too, Jordy. Welcome!
2016 Vikings Free Agency Thread (News, Rumors, Transactions)
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Re: 2016 Vikings Free Agency Thread (News, Rumors, Transacti
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Re: 2016 Vikings Free Agency Thread (News, Rumors, Transacti
For our "roster" to engender any expectations is quite a feat given how much money and cap space our QB eats up, I think we have been supremely talented across the roster given that circumstance.fiestavike wrote: Obviously, McCarthy is your guy, so I don't expect you to change your view, but I don't agree that the Packers under his tenure have particularly personfied those characteristics. I think they've been extremely talented at some of the most important positions, but frankly, most seasons they've disappointed given the expectations their roster engenders.
Anyway, I'm not really interested in "winning" the argument, just communicating clearly and trying to get closer to the truth.
I suppose I should be flattered, you obviously have some VERY high expectations of the Packers if you deem there tenure under McCarthy to be dissapointing.. very high, like number 1 in the league high.
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Re: 2016 Vikings Free Agency Thread (News, Rumors, Transacti
Right, and that phantom is objective Truth and Reality. It all hinges upon that. I happen to believe its a real phantom, hard to pin down, but not a figment of the imagination.Jordysghost wrote:Your entire point and reasoning here, is hinging on a phantom.
Reason and stats and arguments can likewise be phantoms, or fictions, if they aren't in harmony with Truth/Reality. That's the only thing that gives them any validity in any ultimate objective sense. Most of the time, they are just abused in an effort to make something easily digestible and to serve a larger narrative or argument.
A player who takes on the lead block or holds his edge isn't the guy who gets the TFL or who makes the tackle, but the truth is, he made the play as much as the guy who gets the credit. You can see that, but you can't easily quantify it. It doesn't mean its not real. That guy might be the better player, the more valuable player, than the guy who racks up 10 tackles. Just a small illustration.
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Re: 2016 Vikings Free Agency Thread (News, Rumors, Transacti
Yes, I understand your point quite well Fiesta.fiestavike wrote: Right, and that phantom is objective Truth and Reality. It all hinges upon that. I happen to believe its a real phantom, hard to pin down, but not a figment of the imagination.
Reason and stats and arguments can likewise be phantoms, or fictions, if they aren't in harmony with Truth/Reality. That's the only thing that gives them any validity in any ultimate objective sense. Most of the time, they are just abused in an effort to make something easily digestible and to serve a larger narrative or argument.
A player who takes on the lead block or holds his edge isn't the guy who gets the TFL or who makes the tackle, but the truth is, he made the play as much as the guy who gets the credit. You can see that, but you can't easily quantify it. It doesn't mean its not real. That guy might be the better player, the more valuable player, than the guy who racks up 10 tackles. Just a small illustration.
But what you view as 'Objective truth and reality', to some may be "Grasping at straws and subjective rationalizations".
I understand that you think Fox has a leg up in the less quantifiable aspects of building a team, I disagree,and think exactly the opposite, and dont in any way see how you could come to that conclusion (Outside of wishful thinking and homerism) but that is your opinion and I respect it.
I think if Fox built teams that were tougher, more resiliant, smarter, or likewise, he would have SOMETHING that actually points to that being the case, but there isnt.
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Re: 2016 Vikings Free Agency Thread (News, Rumors, Transacti
Sorry, but when you start posting the kind of psychobabble you were posting above, it's like talking football with Deepak Chopra. As you put it, it's "will masquerading as reason", believing what you want to believe (ie" "the truth"). Meanwhile, actual accomplishments that inconveniently contradict your belief are dismissed in favor of characteristics that are virtually impossible to quantify, like the "character, intelligence and toughness of a team". The accomplishments are "swimming in a sea of too many variables and other factors for them to be of any use as they relate to reality" but somehow those same variables no longer apply when making determinations about the aforementioned ""character, intelligence and toughness"?fiestavike wrote: Thanks Jim, I appreciate that.
I may have suffered a bout of post-traumatic stress disorder just reading your exchange with Jordy. You and I have had way too many discussions like that!
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Re: 2016 Vikings Free Agency Thread (News, Rumors, Transacti
If you understand the point and we agree on that, I find that far more important than you agreeing with the specific argument pertaining to John Fox coached teams!Jordysghost wrote: Yes, I understand your point quite well Fiesta.
But what you view as 'Objective truth and reality', to some may be "Grasping at straws and subjective rationalizations".
I understand that you think Fox has a leg up in the less quantifiable aspects of building a team, I disagree,and think exactly the opposite, and dont in any way see how you could come to that conclusion (Outside of wishful thinking and homerism) but that is your opinion and I respect it.
I think if Fox built teams that were tougher, more resiliant, smarter, or likewise, he would have SOMETHING that actually points to that being the case, but there isnt.
I think there's plenty that points to it, you could pick some data points like, 1. Jake Delhomme, 2. 2003 Superbowl appearance, for example and we could play that game all day, which would be a big waste of time...but ultimately I agree that the SOMETHING that actually points to the validity of my position can only really be seen by watching the actual games, and I don't just mean watching the football.
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Re: 2016 Vikings Free Agency Thread (News, Rumors, Transacti
Feel free to bow out. I think Jordy and I are understanding one another.Mothman wrote:
Sorry, but when you start posting the kind of psychobabble you were posting above, it's like talking football with Deepak Chopra. As you put it, it's "will masquerading as reason", believing what you want to believe (ie" "the truth"). Meanwhile, actual accomplishments that inconveniently contradict your belief are dismissed in favor of characteristics that are virtually impossible to quantify, like the "character, intelligence and toughness of a team". The accomplishments are "swimming in a sea of too many variables and other factors for them to be of any use as they relate to reality" but somehow those same variables no longer apply when making determinations about the aforementioned ""character, intelligence and toughness"?
I may have suffered a bout of post-traumatic stress disorder just reading your exchange with Jordy. You and I have had way too many discussions like that!
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Re: 2016 Vikings Free Agency Thread (News, Rumors, Transacti
In that discussion, I would probably see your Delhomme and raise you a 2007 Favre (Probably worse then Delhomme, and that is no exaggeration) being a throw away from the SB. Or getting to OT against one of the best defensive teams in the league with our number 5 and number 6 WRs being thrust into the role as our two starting WRs, OR maybe when he won the SB with 15 STARTERS on IR.. but I digress. I think you catch my drift.fiestavike wrote: If you understand the point and we agree on that, I find that far more important than you agreeing with the specific argument pertaining to John Fox coached teams!
I think there's plenty that points to it, you could pick some data points like, 1. Jake Delhomme, 2. 2003 Superbowl appearance, for example and we could play that game all day, which would be a big waste of time...but ultimately I agree that the SOMETHING that actually points to the validity of my position can only really be seen by watching the actual games, and I don't just mean watching the football.
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Re: 2016 Vikings Free Agency Thread (News, Rumors, Transacti
Indeed!fiestavike wrote: Feel free to bow out. I think Jordy and I are understanding one another.
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Re: 2016 Vikings Free Agency Thread (News, Rumors, Transacti
Yes, I do catch your drift. Like I said we could go on all day throwing these stats and facts etc at one another, trying to support our positions, trying to win the argument, frankly I find that to be a really boring form of communication about sports. Its a "fan" approach to understanding the game, an ESPN "Skip Bayless vs Stephen A Smith" approach, and its just not very insightful in the end. I'm much more interested in a coaches perspective. I've learned a lot about sports from following Greg Popavich, and his approach to the game, and I really susbscribe to that philosophy.Jordysghost wrote: In that discussion, I would probably see your Delhomme and raise you a 2007 Favre (Probably worse then Delhomme, and that is no exaggeration) being a throw away from the SB. Or getting to OT against one of the best defensive teams in the league with our number 5 and number 6 WRs being thrust into the role as our two starting WRs, OR maybe when he won the SB with 15 STARTERS on IR.. but I digress. I think you catch my drift.
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Re: 2016 Vikings Free Agency Thread (News, Rumors, Transacti
Wait, you threw stats and facts at me? Could you do so again, because I dont think I came down with any.fiestavike wrote: Yes, I do catch your drift. Like I said we could go on all day throwing these stats and facts etc at one another, trying to support our positions, trying to win the argument, frankly I find that to be a really boring form of communication about sports. Its a "fan" approach to understanding the game, an ESPN "Skip Bayless vs Stephen A Smith" approach, and its just not very insightful in the end. I'm much more interested in a coaches perspective. I've learned a lot about sports from following Greg Popavich, and his approach to the game, and I really susbscribe to that philosophy.
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Re: 2016 Vikings Free Agency Thread (News, Rumors, Transacti
WARNING: what follows is completely made up, but it needn't be.Jordysghost wrote: Wait, you threw stats and facts at me? Could you do so again, because I dont think I came down with any.
well, John Fox's teams improve an average of 19 wins per 2 seasons when he takes them over and divides them by 2. Factoring in cold weather and yards per attempt and QB ratings before and after his arrival! and he's won 73 games when trailing after 1 qtr! and bla bla bla bla bla bla
How #### informative!
You can "win" this argument my friend. Its not important to me if John Fox or Mike McCarthy is a better coach.
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Re: 2016 Vikings Free Agency Thread (News, Rumors, Transacti
That seems like if those stats were real, they would still be pretty contrived and irrelevant to the point of who is a better coach.. I mean come on Fiesta, you know the ample statistical points that I presented earlier were nothing like your example above..fiestavike wrote: WARNING: what follows is completely made up, but it needn't be.
well, John Fox's teams improve an average of 19 wins per 2 seasons when he takes them over and divides them by 2. Factoring in cold weather and yards per attempt and QB ratings before and after his arrival! and he's won 73 games when trailing after 1 qtr! and bla bla bla bla bla bla
How #### informative!
You can "win" this argument my friend. Its not important to me if John Fox or Mike McCarthy is a better coach.
It seems like you think I didnt understand your argument, I understand your point, but even when you get into non quantifiable tidbits like you apparently want to, it still seems like the same guy who has the edge in tangible statistics still comes out ahead.. im just.. im not trying to lambast you or "win" anything, I just think you really, really are grasping at straws here, I understand what your saying, I really do, but I think you really have to 'Take it the distance' to come to that conclusion in this specific discussion..
I digress, We took the this thread a bit off the rails.
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Re: 2016 Vikings Free Agency Thread (News, Rumors, Transacti
They are intentionally beside the point, yes.Jordysghost wrote:
That seems like if those stats were real, they would still be pretty contrived and irrelevant to the point of who is a better coach.. I mean come on Fiesta, you know the ample statistical points that I presented earlier were nothing like your example above..
It seems like you think I didnt understand your argument, I understand your point, but even when you get into non quantifiable tidbits like you apparently want to, it still seems like the same guy who has the edge in tangible statistics still comes out ahead.. im just.. im not trying to lambast you or "win" anything, I just think you really, really are grasping at straws here, I understand what your saying, I really do, but I think you really have to 'Take it the distance' to come to that conclusion in this specific discussion..
I digress, We took the this thread a bit off the rails.
I'm not grasping at straws, I'm trying to get beyond the point where we use meaningless measures instead of essential measures. And honestly (my bad on this one) beyond silly "rankings" like the one I proposed upstream, and the debates that surround them. It gets tougher and tougher in the age of ESPN and fantasy football. I appreciate you engaging with me on it.
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Re: 2016 Vikings Free Agency Thread (News, Rumors, Transacti
Lets get back on topic, feel free to start another thread if you want to continue the back and forth.