Browns Journalist wants Browns to poach GM Rick Spielman

[IrishViking]

This seems like its getting a bit personal.




Article is funny but bunk.

[PurpleMustReign]

There are a lot of ways I feel like responding to that but I'll just say this was a particularly bad day for you to make that post, Josh. Thanks for making it a little worse.

I didn't mean to upset you, Jim, although it didn't come out how I intended it and I apologize for how it did come out.

My point is... Just because a coach can have one good season doesn't make him a good coach. Brad Childress assembled an insane amount of talent, yet he really only had one deep playoff run with it. Leslie Frasier had one good season, and you can not tell me that if AD had anything less than the season he somehow had that the Vikings would have still made the playoffs.
Frasier had one thing going for him, and that was his ability to get his team to play well in the face of some pretty extreme diversity like their home stadium collapsing and having a game moved to a Tuesday night in a hostile environment. But when it came to actually coaching the game, making adjustments, and putting players in position to succeed, he just couldn't do it. I like him a a person, but as a professional NFL coach, he just is not good.

[dead_poet]

I didn't mean to upset you, Jim, although it didn't come out how I intended it and I apologize for how it did come out.

My point is... Just because a coach can have one good season doesn't make him a good coach. Brad Childress assembled an insane amount of talent, yet he really only had one deep playoff run with it. Leslie Frasier had one good season, and you can not tell me that if AD had anything less than the season he somehow had that the Vikings would have still made the playoffs.
Frasier had one thing going for him, and that was his ability to get his team to play well in the face of some pretty extreme diversity like their home stadium collapsing and having a game moved to a Tuesday night in a hostile environment. But when it came to actually coaching the game, making adjustments, and putting players in position to succeed, he just couldn't do it. I like him a a person, but as a professional NFL coach, he just is not good.

Just a question: what percentage of Frazier's disappointments were at the deficiencies in the talent department? I'm just saying it appears as though the talent in 2014-2015 (particularly on the defensive side of the ball) is pretty clearly ahead of the units under Frazier at no fault of his own. Obviously I'm not saying Frazier was Lombardi in disguise but I don't think he was as awful as some make him out to be. I might be mistaken. I did really like Frazier the person so maybe that's playing a bit into my overall perception.

[Mothman]

I didn't mean to upset you, Jim, although it didn't come out how I intended it and I apologize for how it did come out.

Thank you. I'm dealing with some actual, real life reasons to be upset today so that didn't sit well.

My point is... Just because a coach can have one good season doesn't make him a good coach. Brad Childress assembled an insane amount of talent, yet he really only had one deep playoff run with it. Leslie Frasier had one good season, and you can not tell me that if AD had anything less than the season he somehow had that the Vikings would have still made the playoffs.
Frasier had one thing going for him, and that was his ability to get his team to play well in the face of some pretty extreme diversity like their home stadium collapsing and having a game moved to a Tuesday night in a hostile environment. But when it came to actually coaching the game, making adjustments, and putting players in position to succeed, he just couldn't do it. I like him a a person, but as a professional NFL coach, he just is not good.

All of that is beside the point which was: the idea that Frazier dragged down Spielman's personnel acquisitions like an anchor just doesn't hold up under scrutiny. That's what I was attempting to talk about. I didn't and don't want to revisit the "2012 was ALL about Peterson" argument because that doesn't hold up under scrutiny either.

[PurpleMustReign]

All of that is beside the point which was: the idea that Frazier dragged down Spielman's personnel acquisitions like an anchor just doesn't hold up under scrutiny. That's what I was attempting to talk about. I didn't and don't want to revisit the "2012 was ALL about Peterson" argument because that doesn't hold up under scrutiny either.

Well, I must have missed a few posts or something. And really, to me it doesn't matter... I feel like Zimmer is the best coach we have had since Denny Green, and he has a chance to be as good or better than Bud if he can win a Super Bowl. I don't think Frasier dragged down Spielmsn's acquisitions... but I don't think he used them right either.

[Demi]

Just a question: what percentage of Frazier's disappointments were at the deficiencies in the talent department?

Considering all the picks spend on the offensive side of the ball. A lot. Zimmer is being given quite a bit more to work with, that shouldn't excuse Frazier and how some players looked when he was here. And then when he went to Tampa and helped Lovie drive that defense into the ditch.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I'm not sure making illogical choices is in the nature of being a GM but moving forward, if you're not saying Spielman is a mistake-free GM then presumably there's room for legitimate criticism of some of his choices, no?

Well making illogical decisions happens with every GM. I can bring up any team out there and discuss bad picks if you really want me to. It happens to all of them. Of course you can criticize him just like you can any other GM. His Carlson signing was one of the dumbest contracts/signings I've seen us have in a long time.

But what drives me crazy is everyone wants to bring up what he did 5 years ago in 2011 when he wasnt hired as GM yet. Just like his first few years as GM, nobody would let go how bad he was in Miami. WHO CARES what he did 5+ years ago!!! It's about what he's done lately. And what he has done lately has been very good. Just look at last years draft class, the way he has stocked up on picks every year, the talent he has brought in in the draft and FA, etc.

Side note: I find it funny that Demi said "look at the pro bowlers we have this year".....and now we have 5 Guess that backfired.

[dead_poet]

Considering all the picks spend on the offensive side of the ball. A lot.

2011 Vikings offensive draft picks:

QB Christian Ponder (1st round): out of the league/free agent
TE Kyle Rudolph (2nd round): The best year of his career was in 2012, under Frazier.
OT Demarcus Love (6th round): out of the league/free agent
OG Brandon Fusco (6th round): Developed into a good RG under Frazier. Injuries and playing out of position have made him ineffective since signing his contract extension
WR Stephen Burton (7th round): out of the league/free agent

Conclusion: That's not a lot of offensive firepower to work with. A single TE (that many already aren't that high on due to limited athleticism). Being thrown the ball by Christian Ponder.

2012 Vikings offensive draft picks:

OT Matt Kalil (1st round): His best season was 2012, under Frazier (granted his worst seasons may have also been under Frazier)
WR Jarius Wright (4th round): Has developed into a decent role player. Only played 7 games for Frazier.
TE Rhett Ellison (4th round): Good blocking TE. Not much of a skill player
WR Greg Childs (4th round): Knee injuries destroyed career. Never played an NFL snap

Conclusion: Wright was the only offensive "skill player" out of the 2012 draft the Vikings selected that played any snaps for Frazier. In fact, the only offensive "skill position" player Frazier's offense got earlier than the fourth round was a tight end (Kyle Rudolph). I guess I don't understand "all the picks on the offensive side of the ball" argument.

Zimmer is being given quite a bit more to work with, that shouldn't excuse Frazier and how some players looked when he was here.

Who, specifically?

And then when he went to Tampa and helped Lovie drive that defense into the ditch.

[/quote]

Over the last four games of 2015, Tampa Bay allowed 16.75 points/game, which would put them amongst the best in the league. If you expanded that to the final six, they averaged 19.83 points allowed/game, which would've still had them in the top-10. Aside from McCoy and David I'm not sure how much talent was over there either. I'm not saying he's a magician. There was a lot wrong in Tampa. It often takes a few seasons with a new regime to see meaningful change. Nowadays coaches have a hard time getting that.

[mondry]

Just a question: what percentage of Frazier's disappointments were at the deficiencies in the talent department? I'm just saying it appears as though the talent in 2014-2015 (particularly on the defensive side of the ball) is pretty clearly ahead of the units under Frazier at no fault of his own. Obviously I'm not saying Frazier was Lombardi in disguise but I don't think he was as awful as some make him out to be. I might be mistaken. I did really like Frazier the person so maybe that's playing a bit into my overall perception.

It wasn't about the personnel that made me sour on Frazier. It was all the mental stuff, like his decision to send an 11 man run blitz on 3rd and goal from the 3 while washington had no time outs and 14 seconds left in the half. There's zero % chance they run on that play because if they get stuffed they wouldn't have had time to get the field goal kicking unit on the field and ready in time. http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-high ... highlights play is at 52 seconds into the video.

Then there's the concept of playing 8 yards off all the WR's on 3rd and 4 that allowed Rodgers and the Packers to not have to punt the entire game.

I could go on but this stuff is history, the dude lost his job and it doesn't matter anymore. Frazier was a good guy so I understand that part of it, I hold nothing against him and wish him the best but he was an awful head coach and coordinator.

Over the last four games of 2015, Tampa Bay allowed 16.75 points/game, which would put them amongst the best in the league. If you expanded that to the final six, they averaged 19.83 points allowed/game, which would've still had them in the top-10. Aside from McCoy and David I'm not sure how much talent was over there either. I'm not saying he's a magician. There was a lot wrong in Tampa. It often takes a few seasons with a new regime to see meaningful change. Nowadays coaches have a hard time getting that.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300000 ... laycalling

Frazier was so bad Lovie took over the defensive play calling in the 2nd half of the season.

[dead_poet]

I could go on but this stuff is history, the dude lost his job and it doesn't matter anymore. Frazier was a good guy so I understand that part of it, I hold nothing against him and wish him the best but he was an awful head coach and coordinator.

I wouldn't say awful. And I think he had a decent run as coordinator for us for several years. YMMV.

Frazier was so bad Lovie took over the defensive play calling in the 2nd half of the season.

I didn't realize that.

[slapnut19]

lovie and frazier's cover 2 scheme is just outdated.

[Cliff]

lovie and frazier's cover 2 scheme is just outdated.

It can still work it just requires very specific skillsets at LB. Specifically it needs a really good MLB. For example, Urlacher in Chicago. If he had an MLB like that again his defense can be really good. The problem with Frazier and Lovie is their inflexibility. This season when the Vikings lost several starters on defense but they were (for the most part) still able to get the job done. I don't think the Tampa Two defense can survive injury like that without looking pathetic. It could just be that Zimmer is better at making adjustments but I think his scheme is also quite a bit more flexible.

[fiestavike]

It can still work it just requires very specific skillsets at LB. Specifically it needs a really good MLB. For example, Urlacher in Chicago. If he had an MLB like that again his defense can be really good. The problem with Frazier and Lovie is their inflexibility. This season when the Vikings lost several starters on defense but they were (for the most part) still able to get the job done. I don't think the Tampa Two defense can survive injury like that without looking pathetic. It could just be that Zimmer is better at making adjustments but I think his scheme is also quite a bit more flexible.

Its outdated because it requires hits from the secondary that have been deemed illegal, result in penalties and fines. The cover 2 is dead.

[Mothman]

Well making illogical decisions happens with every GM. I can bring up any team out there and discuss bad picks if you really want me to. It happens to all of them. Of course you can criticize him just like you can any other GM. His Carlson signing was one of the dumbest contracts/signings I've seen us have in a long time.

But what drives me crazy is everyone wants to bring up what he did 5 years ago in 2011 when he wasnt hired as GM yet. Just like his first few years as GM, nobody would let go how bad he was in Miami. WHO CARES what he did 5+ years ago!!!

I do because some of those decisions still have an impact today.

It's about what he's done lately. And what he has done lately has been very good. Just look at last years draft class, the way he has stocked up on picks every year, the talent he has brought in in the draft and FA, etc.

... and look at the bad o-line, the low-ranked offense, the ongoing issues with the QB position and passing game. When I talk about illogical decisions, I'm talking about choices he's made as GM, not just before he was GM. He's brought in some good talent but I think the jury is still out on him as a team-builder.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I do because some of those decisions still have an impact today.
... and look at the bad o-line, the low-ranked offense, the ongoing issues with the QB position and passing game. When I talk about illogical decisions, I'm talking about choices he's made as GM, not just before he was GM. He's brought in some good talent but I think the jury is still out on him as a team-builder.

Well you kept referring to the 2011 season. Did he really create a bad o-line though? Or did injuries create that? Because if we had sully and Phil, I can just about guarantee our offensive line isn't too bad at all. Most of the pressure was given up from Clemmings which Phil wouldn't have done nearly as often. Look at New England. They had a good offensive line and then got hammered with injuries and look how bad it is now.

Not too long ago I brought up that if a team loses key starters on their offensive line then chances are, they're going to struggle. Somebody specifically said that New England doesn't and I think GB. And those have both been proven false. Like I said before and I'll say it again, if you have key players go down on your offensive line, there are going to be struggles. Many backups are backups for a reason. If they were good enough to start, they would be starting so you really can't expect a whole lot when guys go down.

And it's the low ranked passing game. Not the low ranked "offense". We were the #4 rushing team in the NFL. Well let's see. Spielman busted on CP so if he didn't, we could possibly have DeAndre Hopkins paired next to Stefon Diggs. So yeah, Spielman messed up there. I don't care what you think of Teddy, if Hopkins was in this offense, we would be very dangerous. With the numbers Hopkins put up with a combination of Brian Hoyer, Ryan Mallett, TJ Yates and Brandon Weeden throwing to him, are just crazy. So yeah, Spielman messed up there.

Offensively, where else has he really messed up as of late? If the offensive line doesn't go down with injuries, you're pretty decent there. If we added Hopkins instead of CP. He made two solid picks with Diggs and Wright. I'm still a big fan of Rudy. Are you going to say Carr over Teddy? I mean I'm not sure what else. Our line struggled this year due to injuries (especially at RT). Our passing game struggled due to the line and lack of WR outside of Diggs. Teddy didn't play his best but showed some flashes.

I still think Teddy and AP aren't a good match and that's a big part of the lack of passing game as well but thats another separate conversation.

I believe we are a WR, few OL and a SS away from legitimately contending year in and year out for a SB. It's easier said than done but that isn't too tall of a task this coming offseason and I trust Spielman to fix it.