PHP's "Way Too Early But I Love It" 2016 Mock Offseason

[fiestavike]

And, most importantly, his tape is WAY more impressive!

The only thing that gives me pause is whether he'll be able to do his thing in our currently not-very-potent offense. I mean, Doctson needs a QB and an offensive coordinator who have a pair of cojones --they have to be willing to strike hard down field and let him go pluck the ball out of the defender's grasp. If we had Favre or a like-minded QB, I'd have no hesitations whatsoever.

If you don't think that's what Norv Turner wants to do, and wanted to do last year, you don't know about Norv Turner. Unfortunately he was handcuffed by personnel problems.

[Texas Vike]

If you don't think that's what Norv Turner wants to do, and wanted to do last year, you don't know about Norv Turner. Unfortunately he was handcuffed by personnel problems.

I can't pretend to read Turner's mind or probe his desires... I can only go by what I've seen on the field. The offense he's called has been pretty cowardly IMO. I much prefer TCU's high octane offense. I follow the Vikes and TCU--during all of last season I wished I could take TCU's offense and combine it with the Vikes' D.

[fiestavike]

I can't pretend to read Turner's mind or probe his desires... I can only go by what I've seen on the field. The offense he's called has been pretty cowardly IMO. I much prefer TCU's high octane offense. I follow the Vikes and TCU--during all of last season I wished I could take TCU's offense and combine it with the Vikes' D.

I'm not asking you to read Norv Turners mind, just pay attention to what he had done in his many many years in the league. It's common knowledge.

[Texas Vike]

I'm not asking you to read Norv Turners mind, just pay attention to what he had done in his many many years in the league. It's common knowledge.

For one, Norv's career has been much more up and down than the narrative you're spinning. But more importantly, here's the deal for me: I don't think as highly of Norv as you apparently do. I think that even if he had better personnel, he wouldn't be as successful now as he was in decades past. His ideas are stale. I don't trust that he'll get our offense straightened out. I have faith in Zimmer's vision for the D, I wish I could say the same for our O.

[dead_poet]

For one, Norv's career has been much more up and down than the narrative you're spinning. But more importantly, here's the deal for me: I don't think as highly of Norv as you apparently do. I think that even if he had better personnel, he wouldn't be as successful now as he was in decades past. His ideas are stale. I don't trust that he'll get our offense straightened out. I have faith in Zimmer's vision for the D, I wish I could say the same for our O.

I'll just say that Norv's offense in Cleveland (which included a horrible QB situation but Josh Gordon and one of the better offensive lines) was 11th in passing yards (4,047) and passing TDs (27). It was pretty explosive despite QB and RB limitations. Compare this to Chip Kelly's supposedly creative/"innovative" offensive scheme in 2015 which had 4,087 passing yards and 23 passing TDs.

This is a good article which outlined requirements for Norv's offense: http://www.dailynorseman.com/2015/6/15/ ... -revisited

out a year ago, I did a FanPost on Norv Turner's offense, and how the Vikings looked to have, or would soon have, all the key elements in place for it to be a good fit and a successful scheme for the Vikings offensive personnel.

In that article, four key elements for Norv's Air Coryell offense were identified as necessary for it to work at its best:

A big #1 WR
Solid offensive line
Solid receiving TE
Power running game
And, I would add, a competent QB to put it all together.

The big #1 WR is needed to stretch the field and be the legitimate deep threat in a vertical passing attack; solid offensive line to provide the longer-than-average time needed for longer routes and good run blocking; a solid receiving TE to be able to run all the routes and take advantage of space in the middle provided by longer outside routes; and a power running game to keep defenses honest and provide a balanced attack.

Once again, looking back at Norv's Air Coryell offensive scheme, and the elements he had in place over the years, here is the track record:

It's an interesting read particularly as it was written in June of last year prior to things unraveling, particularly on the offensive line.

I guess I'm in the middle. I think there's value in a proven offense, though I do also place value in creativity and innovation. But both require the right (talented) players to be effective.

[IIsweet]

Damn, so given a legitimate deep threat #1 WR, a great OL, a solid pass catching TE, and a power running game.... Norv then is a good OC!!!
Heck, give me that and I am a good OC.
He's predictable. Sure, he's forgotten more about offensive football than I will ever know, bit he's got to open it up or be moved on!

[fiestavike]

For one, Norv's career has been much more up and down than the narrative you're spinning. But more importantly, here's the deal for me: I don't think as highly of Norv as you apparently do. I think that even if he had better personnel, he wouldn't be as successful now as he was in decades past. His ideas are stale. I don't trust that he'll get our offense straightened out. I have faith in Zimmer's vision for the D, I wish I could say the same for our O.

Put his success aside, because that's not even what I was commenting on. Obviously Norv wants to get the ball down the field and be aggressive. Its always been his MO. That's what my comments were regarding because that was the particular criticism you were leveling, and it happens to be false.

[Texas Vike]

Put his success aside, because that's not even what I was commenting on. Obviously Norv wants to get the ball down the field and be aggressive. Its always been his MO. That's what my comments were regarding because that was the particular criticism you were leveling, and it happens to be false.

This is what I wrote:

The only thing that gives me pause is whether he'll be able to do his thing in our currently not-very-potent offense. I mean, Doctson needs a QB and an offensive coordinator who have a pair of cojones --they have to be willing to strike hard down field and let him go pluck the ball out of the defender's grasp. If we had Favre or a like-minded QB, I'd have no hesitations whatsoever.

Whether it be due to a horrible OL or a QB whose down field accuracy is subpar or because he lacks cojones, Norv has failed to create an explosive offense here. I don't care what he's done in the past. I'm looking at what he's done for the Vikings. His offense is predictable and lacks punch. I genuinely fear that Doctson would not be utilized correctly. As I stated, a good portion of my fear comes from Teddy not being a good long ball thrower (nor is he a risk taker IMO). Boykin was the opposite of Teddy in that way and TCU's OC (Meacham) is innovative and a huge risk taker. It allowed Doctson to excel. Look at how TCU beat Oregon in the Alamo Bowl without Boykin, Doctson, Listenbee and many other starters. They have an aggressive, ballsy system that lets the QB attack.

The other issue for me: If Norv doesn't have the pieces he needs, I put the responsibility on him to go get them. I'm tired of excuses for Norv.

[dead_poet]

This is what I wrote: Whether it be due to a horrible OL or a QB whose down field accuracy is subpar or because he lacks cojones, Norv has failed to create an explosive offense here. I don't care what he's done in the past. I'm looking at what he's done for the Vikings. His offense is predictable and lacks punch. I genuinely fear that Doctson would not be utilized correctly. As I stated, a good portion of my fear comes from Teddy not being a good long ball thrower (nor is he a risk taker IMO). Boykin was the opposite of Teddy in that way and TCU's OC (Meacham) is innovative and a huge risk taker. It allowed Doctson to excel. Look at how TCU beat Oregon in the Alamo Bowl without Boykin, Doctson, Listenbee and many other starters. They have an aggressive, ballsy system that lets the QB attack.

The other issue for me: If Norv doesn't have the pieces he needs, I put the responsibility on him to go get them. I'm tired of excuses for Norv.

Was Josh Gordon used correctly in Cleveland?

[Texas Vike]

Was Josh Gordon used correctly in Cleveland?

Not sure. Life's too short to watch the Browns.

[fiestavike]

Doctson needs a QB and an offensive coordinator who have a pair of cojones --they have to be willing to strike hard down field and let him go pluck the ball out of the defender's grasp.

Perhaps I misunderstood, because this clearly read as a criticism of Norv Turner being too conservative.

Whether it be due to a horrible OL or a QB whose down field accuracy is subpar or because he lacks cojones, Norv has failed to create an explosive offense here. I don't care what he's done in the past. I'm looking at what he's done for the Vikings. His offense is predictable and lacks punch. I genuinely fear that Doctson would not be utilized correctly. As I stated, a good portion of my fear comes from Teddy not being a good long ball thrower (nor is he a risk taker IMO). Boykin was the opposite of Teddy in that way and TCU's OC (Meacham) is innovative and a huge risk taker. It allowed Doctson to excel. Look at how TCU beat Oregon in the Alamo Bowl without Boykin, Doctson, Listenbee and many other starters. They have an aggressive, ballsy system that lets the QB attack.

The other issue for me: If Norv doesn't have the pieces he needs, I put the responsibility on him to go get them. I'm tired of excuses for Norv.

I don't feel its necessary to make any excuses. I think he did a fantastic job and adapted his offense to be an efficient, though not explosive unit, despite its deficiencies. I'm not sure as OC what pieces he would be responsible for bringing in, but I'd love to see improvement with the offensive personnel.

[mondry]

I think it's pretty clear that the personnel limited what we could do. Norv adapted and "made the best" out of the circumstances. With that said he wasn't perfect, it took a long time before we stopped leading the league in 7 step drops and his final product of offense was extremely conservative. Yes a big portion of that conservatism was warranted but the absolutely ridiculous %'s of runs on 1st down and lack of play action on early downs is inexcusable when you have AD on your team and every single opponent is selling out to stop him.

As for a Josh Gordon or CLE's offense being used right / explosive, that's too far down the apples and oranges hole to be used as a comparison. CLE was an awful team and we all know awful teams tend to pile up stats in garbage time, they also didn't have a running game to even speak of and they actually had one of the top O-lines back then anchored by future HoFer Joe Thomas.

I don't think Norv's the answer here, but it's not exactly his fault, I want to see a quick hitting offense like NE's brought in for Teddy and build around that. Personally I just don't think an Air Coryell offense can win it all in today's NFL because one of it's main traits is holding the ball longer than I feel NFL QB's should be aiming for. Why has Brady and Manning been so good all these years? The ball comes out in under 2.5 seconds a lot of the time and that just negates a pass rush even though those guys aren't very elusive or evasive. Why hold the ball for 3+ seconds on purpose?

With all that said, I don't worry about Doctson being misused, yes Norv and Teddy were conservative last year but they had damn good reason to be. I consider that more of a symptom of everything else rather than something they'd aim to do full time even with a good O-line and Doctson being a big upgrade at WR.

[dead_poet]

As for a Josh Gordon or CLE's offense being used right / explosive, that's too far down the apples and oranges hole to be used as a comparison. CLE was an awful team and we all know awful teams tend to pile up stats in garbage time, they also didn't have a running game to even speak of and they actually had one of the top O-lines back then anchored by future HoFer Joe Thomas.

Unless you have some stats to back that up, I can't go there. The Cleveland passing game was pretty effective despite lackluster QB play by the likes of Jason Campbell, Brandon Weeden and Brian Hoyer. They had a good offensive line (Pro Bowlers Joe Thomas and C Alex Mack) and a Pro Bowl WR in Josh Gordon who led the league in receiving yards and 20+ yard plays (30, which was five more than the #2). Despite having nothing behind Gordon save for a good TE in Jordan Cameron they put up more than 4,000 passing yards. I'm not going to fault them for passing when that was pretty much the only way their offense could generate production. And I'm agreeing with you in that they had a good/great offensive line, which helped the passing offense. Just like if we had one last season I'm sure that would've helped. But that's the point, isn't it? Having the players to run the scheme effectively?

I don't think Norv's the answer here, but it's not exactly his fault, I want to see a quick hitting offense like NE's brought in for Teddy and build around that. Personally I just don't think an Air Coryell offense can win it all in today's NFL because one of it's main traits is holding the ball longer than I feel NFL QB's should be aiming for. Why has Brady and Manning been so good all these years? The ball comes out in under 2.5 seconds a lot of the time and that just negates a pass rush even though those guys aren't very elusive or evasive. Why hold the ball for 3+ seconds on purpose?

Again, I don't care what the offense is as long as it's effective. There are offenses in the league that have had success with deeper-oriented schemes. The 2015 Arizona Cardinals immediately come to mind, finishing the best in the league in passing offense and #2 in points/game. But they have the horses to run that type of offense from stud receivers, QB and a good enough offensive line. Put Bruce Arians in charge of the 2015 Vikings and I'm not sure how much more efficient we would've been.

With all that said, I don't worry about Doctson being misused, yes Norv and Teddy were conservative last year but they had damn good reason to be. I consider that more of a symptom of everything else rather than something they'd aim to do full time even with a good O-line and Doctson being a big upgrade at WR.

I don't worry about it much either and generally agree the rather conservative style of offense was the result of various symptoms, mainly a line that had far too many breakdowns to for deep shots to be taken successfully (even though Norv did apparently try that far too often, not taking into account the line couldn't protect long enough to have much success or just believing it could even after time and again proving it couldn't). Each team has an identity. Let's hope the 2016 Vikings (perhaps with a Josh Doctson and improved offensive line) can take a step forward in productivity, even if it's less bombs. I just want efficiency. And points. All of the points.

[dead_poet]

For reference, here were how many points the Browns were down going into the 4th quarter in 2013:

Week 1: 3
Week 2: 1
Week 3: 0 (tied)
Week 4: Up by 4
Week 5: 0 (tied)
Week 6: Up by 3
Week 7: 11
Week 8: 3
Week 9: Up by 11
Week 10: bye
Week 11: 11
Week 12: 17
Week 13: Up by 1
Week 14: Up by 8
Week 15: Up by 7
Week 16: 0 (tied)
Week 17: 17

So if my math is correct the Browns were ahead or tied going into the 4th quarter 9/16 games. They were behind by one score three more times. So in 12/16 games they were either behind by a score, tied or up going into the 4th quarter. In only four games were they down more than one score headed into the last period.

[mansquatch]

Or in short, you also need a defense.

I can agree that our offense was pedestrian, that conclusion seems beyond reproach. However, I'm not 100% on the anti-Norv bandwagon. I really wonder how much of what we saw last year was a result of Norv vs the situation, injury wise, on the OL. To be fair, if you know you can't reliably protect well enough for the deep passing game, then you are much less likely to incorporate it. Other teams will figure this out and then a whole dimension of the offense is off the table. my sense is that this is at least partly responsible for the predictability issues.

The step drop thing certainly deserves criticism though.