The curious case of Mike Wallace

[DK Sweets]

Teddy likes to throw/miss high on the deep throws. Patterson has a big height advantage over Wallace and comparable speed.

Wallace runs crisp routes but has unreliable hands. Patterson has (mostly) reliable hands but runs lazy routes.

Most likely, Teddy is gong to be here for at least two more years damn near no matter what. One player compliments Teddy's weaknesses better than the other and has room to grow. One player has likely more or less peaked.

Wallace can be a good player. I think Patterson could be a better player for Teddy.

Me too. My football fantasy landscape is like the 'island of misfit toys'
Brent would draw up each play on an etch a sketch over on the sideline and it would be awesome.

POTY

(That's "Post of the year" but I also wanted to say "potty")

[mondry]

I'd obviously like to see CP more involved. It's been about a year (longer?) since he was benched. Maybe it's time to see what, if anything, he's learned in that time.

Agreed, makes you wonder if Diggs would have ever saw the field if it wasn't for that CJ injury.

i don't think experienced coaches like turner and zimmer are holding patterson or johnson back for that matter. they play who gives them the best chance to win. they've seen patterson for a season and a half now. if he's not on the field it's because of him, not some coach holding him back.

See above, that very thing happened until he was forced to play diggs due to an injury!

I just think Jim's comment makes a lot of sense, it's been a LONG time now for Patterson to not improve at all. The main thing for me is that he was an EFFECTIVE weapon even back in his rookie year, granted he has to be used in a specific way. By now I find it hard to believe that he isn't any better at the other stuff, namely route running.

[losperros]

i don't think experienced coaches like turner and zimmer are holding patterson or johnson back for that matter. they play who gives them the best chance to win. they've seen patterson for a season and a half now. if he's not on the field it's because of him, not some coach holding him back.

The experienced Norv Turner wasn't around when Patterson had a big rookie season. And Norv called Johnson the "best receiver on the team" last year. So much for that.

I just think Jim's comment makes a lot of sense, it's been a LONG time now for Patterson to not improve at all. The main thing for me is that he was an EFFECTIVE weapon even back in his rookie year, granted he has to be used in a specific way. By now I find it hard to believe that he isn't any better at the other stuff, namely route running.

Patterson probably would be even helpful just doing the stuff he did during in rookie season, given what we're seeing from the Vikings passing game right now. There are routes that Patterson can run too, because we saw him making catches while executing those routes.

I'm just a fan, as we all are, but I think the time has come to change up a bit in the passing game. Why? Because the one the team has now simply isn't working and it's not finishing drives with TDs.

[losperros]

Nah, I'm just pals with an elephant named Bill.

Uh huh. I see.

I think one way to do it is to trust his receivers and be decisive. For example, on comeback routes, he needs to fire the ball when he gets to the top of his drop and trust Wallace and his other receivers to make their breaks when they're supposed to and be on their spot. He has to have faith in what he sees and get rid of the ball, as he did on that TD to Rudolph Sunday.

He also has to resist the urge to come off the downfield routes so quickly and check down.

I'm sure there are other things he could do but I think those are two things that would improve his game, and the Vikes passing attack, immediately. He's fine when he can drop back and throw short passes in rhythm but they have to be able to do more... consistently.

Good stuff, Jim. I hope the Vikings work Bridgewater on all of that. I think it would help his immediate effectiveness, which is what the Vikings need. There are other things that hopefully Teddy can learn in time but right now if he'd adjust his technique, that would be a big positive.

Of course, dodging pass rushers because the OL isn't blocking doesn't help. It seems like everywhere a person looks one can find something lacking in the current passing game. Even so, it begins with the QB. It would help so much to get that part straightened out first.

[mondry]

Good stuff, Jim. I hope the Vikings work Bridgewater on all of that. I think it would help his immediate effectiveness, which is what the Vikings need. There are other things that hopefully Teddy can learn in time but right now if he'd adjust his technique, that would be a big positive.

Of course, dodging pass rushers because the OL isn't blocking doesn't help. It seems like everywhere a person looks one can find something lacking in the current passing game. Even so, it begins with the QB. It would help so much to get that part straightened out first.

I'm just not sure how trust worthy a guy like Mike Wallace is though. Given his history I can understand quite a bit why Teddy wouldn't trust him or has lost trust in him. Last year Patterson couldn't be trusted and he eventually got benched and had to leave the lineup. Personally I think Wallace needs to be benched like Patterson, even if for different reasons and even if it's not Wallace's fault (though I think it is) he's just not the right fit for Teddy and he isn't getting it done.

[Mothman]

I'm just not sure how trust worthy a guy like Mike Wallace is though. Given his history I can understand quite a bit why Teddy wouldn't trust him or has lost trust in him. Last year Patterson couldn't be trusted and he eventually got benched and had to leave the lineup. Personally I think Wallace needs to be benched like Patterson, even if for different reasons and even if it's not Wallace's fault (though I think it is) he's just not the right fit for Teddy and he isn't getting it done.

I wonder how many receivers need to get benched before they find that right fit. When Norv came into town, he couldn't wait to work with a dynamic talent like Patterson! He was scripting new plays for him, they gave him a starting role in the offense for 8 or 9 games but he wasn't productive enough so they benched him for Charles Johnson...

... who came in, had a few good games, became "the best WR on the team" according to Norv and has now been benched.

They went out and got Wallace, a proven, productive WR who hasn't had a season with less than 800 receiving yards since his rookie year and who has just one in the last 5 with fewer than 8 TDs (he caught 5 in 2013). now, mysteriously, he's on pace to have his worst season as a pro.

Maybe the receivers aren't the problem. There's a pattern developing here in which talented, athletically gifted receivers aren't being very productive. It's time to look a LOT more closely at the playcaller and the guy throwing the football.

[PurpleMustReign]

Maybe the receivers aren't the problem. There's a pattern developing here in which talented, athletically gifted receivers aren't being very productive. It's time to look a LOT more closely at the playcaller and the guy throwing the football.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I've been saying that for weeks now

[fiestavike]

I wonder how many receivers need to get benched before they find that right fit. When Norv came into town, he couldn't wait to work with a dynamic talent like Patterson! He was scripting new plays for him, they gave him a starting role in the offense for 8 or 9 games but he wasn't productive enough so they benched him for Charles Johnson...

You are assuming he was benched because he wasn't productive enough.

[losperros]

I wonder how many receivers need to get benched before they find that right fit. When Norv came into town, he couldn't wait to work with a dynamic talent like Patterson! He was scripting new plays for him, they gave him a starting role in the offense for 8 or 9 games but he wasn't productive enough so they benched him for Charles Johnson...

... who came in, had a few good games, became "the best WR on the team" according to Norv and has now been benched.

They went out and got Wallace, a proven, productive WR who hasn't had a season with less than 800 receiving yards since his rookie year and who has just one in the last 5 with fewer than 8 TDs (he caught 5 in 2013). now, mysteriously, he's on pace to have his worst season as a pro.

Maybe the receivers aren't the problem. There's a pattern developing here in which talented, athletically gifted receivers aren't being very productive. It's time to look a LOT more closely at the playcaller and the guy throwing the football.

Very well said.

[allday1991]

I wonder how many receivers need to get benched before they find that right fit. When Norv came into town, he couldn't wait to work with a dynamic talent like Patterson! He was scripting new plays for him, they gave him a starting role in the offense for 8 or 9 games but he wasn't productive enough so they benched him for Charles Johnson...

... who came in, had a few good games, became "the best WR on the team" according to Norv and has now been benched.

They went out and got Wallace, a proven, productive WR who hasn't had a season with less than 800 receiving yards since his rookie year and who has just one in the last 5 with fewer than 8 TDs (he caught 5 in 2013). now, mysteriously, he's on pace to have his worst season as a pro.

Maybe the receivers aren't the problem. There's a pattern developing here in which talented, athletically gifted receivers aren't being very productive. It's time to look a LOT more closely at the playcaller and the guy throwing the football.

What's that word I am looking for Jim...... Bingo!

[mondry]

I don't disagree, but I can't really agree either, which I'm sure doesn't make any sense. What I mean is, this problem of ineffective passing games has existed so long and we've changed QB's, WR's, and even offensive coordinators enough times where I just can't lay the blame squarely on them anymore.

I get they could be better as I don't think Norv or Teddy are even close to perfect but a big part of the problem? I just can't buy it. The one common denominator over the last 6+ years is extremely poor offensive line play, despite all the changes elsewhere, the O-line is the one constantly negative aspect. It's also the one thing that could make all the other areas also seem like problems because poor O-line play hurts the QB, hurts the OC , hurts the WR's, and I'll even go as far to say it hurts Adrian in the running game too. When you lead the league in tackles for a loss that's an isolated problem, you know the o-line is failing as their 100% responsible for blocking for him.

When it comes to Wallace being benched, I think you have to look at things RIGHT NOW and what's happening. So even if Jim's right and it's time to look at Norv and Teddy as the real problems, Wallace isn't working, presumably because they can't make use of him or Teddy can't get him the ball. We can't change norv and we can't change teddy because there isn't a better option mid season. Playing a guy like Patterson might actually help us. If you guys are right and it's norv and Teddy that is the problem, why roll our eyes at the idea of benching Wallace? We saw how much better Ponder and Musgrave looked when they used Harvin that way so if you really think norv and Teddy are the problem wouldn't it make sense to get Patterson in there? Even if it meant running some gimmicky plays just to get the ball in his hands the offense sure could use an extra big play or two. /shrug

[The Breeze]

I don't think any of those 3 issues (OL,QB,OC) are mutually exclusive in this mess.
Far and away the biggest problem IMO is the line. They've had a few different dynamics mixed with some stretches of adequate play that has helped band aid the severed artery it seemingly is...but it's been the biggest issue, and I argue it goes all the way back to TJacks rookie year. Outstanding seasons by Brent Farve and AD and Harvin(to some degree) have helped hide it. Much the same way I feel the current line play is hiding the bad mix of TB and Air Norv.
I'm all for the gimmickery.
CP84 should be heavily involved in making defenses slow down....empty backfields with 4-5 wide running quick hitters and no huddle madness.
Ultimately this team will come across teams that are playing great D in December...the Cards, Bears, Packers,even Seattle and the Giants...and if they get in the post season maybe Carolina.
If strugging to score 14 @ home against GB, after several weeks of struggling to score, doesn't serve as a wakeup call to somebody then what will?
This defense is winning them games.
-
AD is the leading rusher and he leads the league in TFL too? wow

[J. Kapp 11]

The one common denominator over the last 6+ years is extremely poor offensive line play, despite all the changes elsewhere, the O-line is the one constantly negative aspect. It's also the one thing that could make all the other areas also seem like problems because poor O-line play hurts the QB, hurts the OC , hurts the WR's, and I'll even go as far to say it hurts Adrian in the running game too. When you lead the league in tackles for a loss that's an isolated problem, you know the o-line is failing as their 100% responsible for blocking for him.

I said this in another thread, and I'll say it again ...

When people say Norv Turner is known for the vertical passing game, they're not talking about bombs. They're talking about how he coaches his receivers to run their routes deeper than other OCs. ALL ROUTES -- virtually every route in the tree is stretched vertically. Running longer routes takes more time. More time requires better protection. We don't have that.

I don't think it's right to just blame Teddy or blame Wallace or even the O-line, given that Norv is asking them to do things that aren't strengths. He's asking the O-line to protect longer, even on shorter stuff, and he's asking Teddy to make driving throws that aren't in his wheelhouse. It's just not working consistently.

When it comes to Wallace being benched, I think you have to look at things RIGHT NOW and what's happening. So even if Jim's right and it's time to look at Norv and Teddy as the real problems, Wallace isn't working, presumably because they can't make use of him or Teddy can't get him the ball. We can't change norv and we can't change teddy because there isn't a better option mid season. Playing a guy like Patterson might actually help us. ... Even if it meant running some gimmicky plays just to get the ball in his hands the offense sure could use an extra big play or two. /shrug

Exactly. CP can do good things with plays like screens and reverses, plays that can get him in space where he excels. And he has a much bigger catch radius than Wallace, so he might be more effective on intermediate routes and back-shoulder throws. What in the world would it hurt to give some of Wallace's snaps to CP, even if you don't bench Wallace totally.

[James]

Me honestly, I just think that our offense isn't built around the system that Norv is trying to run. This run n gun type offense he trying to run isn't working. We don't have a QB that's capable of burning people with deep passes. Also now that Peterson is back, Norv has done a poor job, disguising what's about to be done on offense. We need a offensive coordinator who knows how to use his players to their potential, and not someone who gets players who have talent but are not a schematic fit.

We have talent to be an explosive offense but not the way Norv is trying to run it. Granted that we do have other problems such as WR not running routes good, WR dropping passes, O-Line pass protection, and QB awareness. But better playcalling can mask a lot of these offensive problems we have. Mike Wallace doesn't fit with this offense. And it has nothing to do with his talent because I still think he has special talent. However, we do not have the type of offense that can utilize his talent.