Scoring

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Mothman
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Re: Scoring

Post by Mothman »

The Breeze wrote:Sure....A scenario where one team has gathered a group of guys that can routinely physically out perform the opponent. Like the SteelCurtain, PPEs, Doomsday D, the Hogs in DC, the Aikman O-line and the trips, practically the whole niners of the 80's.
It's one trick to even get that kind of talent in one place anymore due to all the investment in leaguewide college scouting but also because the gaps between player A and B are becomig smaller as time goes by. The vikes have fast receivers, for example, but are they significantly better, performance-wise, as a result of that speed in regards to the average WR? I don't think so....the gap is too smal.
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If you do manage to put together a physically dominant unit, it doesn't last (couple years?) cause those individuals become FAs, who are then desirable to teams with more money. Like what happened to the Ravens, Saints and now Seattle etc. QBs cost money cuts are made elsewhere.
I understand. Free agency has basically eliminated the possibility of keeping a collection of talent like that together for an extended run. However, it's clearly still possible to put together a team like that and win a Super Bowl.
In regards to the Vikes philosophy: they are running an offense that requires above average players across the board to be sustainably successful. To his credit, when Norv has that, he makes it work well...but what are the odds of that happening really? Meanwhile teams like GB and NE (maybe Cincy, Giants, Pitt,AZ and Carolina) build flexible schemes around key pieces and mortar it together with plug n play guys who don't command high salaries.
I disagree that Turner's offense requires above average players across the board to be successful. I don't think his system requires more talent than any other. Most NFL teams run the same plays so the primary differences in how offenses are run involve organization and terminology, with tweaks like running a no huddle. The organizing principles of Turner's offense make it more difficult to utilize the kind of flexibility the Patriots offense utilizes because the terminology is more cumbersome and specific but the talent requirements probably aren't any more demanding than other offenses.
IMO,The vikes are overpaying at TE,RB one WR, RT(even before the injury considering the requirements of this system) and pinning their success on the shoulders of a 2nd year QB, when they haven't succeeded in cobbling an offensive line together in nearly a decade. And whether that is just a matter of scheme, coaching or talent...I dunno.
It sounds to me like a failure of management and personnel acquisition/development.
I assume the thinking was that with AD back and healthy line, that they'd caught ligtning in a bottle and the ofense would just go. I know I did.
Clemmings is not that good yet. Sully is an undersized center coming off of 2 spinal surgeries, concussion problems, microfracture surgery? and a hernia too?
Loadholt, who was not a consistently good pass blocker, with an achillies recovery? It might be 3 seasons before this group is solid enough to demonstrably prove that Teddy might not be a good fit for this system.
They should be able to tell long before that. Even this year's makeshift o-line isn't so bad that it renders evaluation of Bridgewater's performance impossible.

I imagine the thinking going into the season was much as you suggested but they were ill-prepared to handle injuries to an already suspect line and Bridgewater hasn't been able to thrive throwing downfield to speedy receivers and Rudolph.I think they expected to be able to run the ball behind the starting 5 they had, draw more defenders into the box, and then throw over the top. However, they don't block well enough to dominate in the running game like they did a few years ago and it turns out Bridgewater doesn't have much of a downfield game. Oops.

They don't need an offense composed of nothing but above average players to run Norv's system successfully but they do need to block effectively and they definitely need a QB whose skill set fits their strategy. I'm not sure that's Bridgewater and I'm still wondering why they thought he would be a good fit.
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Re: Scoring

Post by The Breeze »

@Jim
Sorry, my device won't let me quote that last response efficiently.
I agree that a team like that can win it all, but the subsequent economic purge can leave that team down for years. I guess my desire is to be more like the teams that have legit shots for years, of which their are few. But I feel it's because their front offices grasp something that's a little ambiguous for the rest of the league.
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I didn't mean to suggest that the system Norv runs, Air Corryell(sp), requires all above average players....but that it's been Norv's personal history within it. It does take an above average line. The cowboys and chargers are what everyone hangs Norv's hat on. Lots of HOFers on that Cowboy offense (the only group he ever coached than won it all) and at least 3 considerations on that charger group assuming Gates and Rivers#'s add up.(maybe not) Some suggest Norv should get considerable credit for the arc of those careers as the OC and HC. I don't really...position coaches are the hands on dudes, and for HOFers, I think pure talent trumps most of it. Regardless, outside of those two, years old, examples Turner's broadcasts have been decidedly underwhelming...Minny episode included.
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I think there are much more differences between the system Turner runs vs what they do in NE,GB and what Manning does. Not so much in what plays are run but in how they're masked and called on a down by down basis. And the ability of the QB to make quality presnap reads.
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The pressure put on an o-line to be an outright power run blocking, man on man unit that also needs to be capable of holding a pocket while WRs run longer slower developing routes, creates a need for an above 'average' line IMO. We don't have that even when healthy. That's debatable for sure...but they ain't healthy so maybe it's moot.
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As for the breakdown in personnel choices regarding TB: it was Norv banging his fist on the table demanding Spielman pick TB. Now it's Norv asking him to be somethin he's not good at while ignoring or marginalizing the things he is good at (ala CP84?)
Which is where my concern about who is really in charge of this arises.
A might premature...maybe. But if there aren't some significant changes going into next season...I. will. be. disappoint.
Cause the writing seems to be on the wall in some regard.
I really don't think they'll get the line fixed in one offseason and TB doesn't fit this system as well as he would another.
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Re: Scoring

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The Breeze wrote:@Jim
Sorry, my device won't let me quote that last response efficiently.
I agree that a team like that can win it all, but the subsequent economic purge can leave that team down for years. I guess my desire is to be more like the teams that have legit shots for years, of which their are few. But I feel it's because their front offices grasp something that's a little ambiguous for the rest of the league.
I want that too. The turnover is inevitable so it has to be overcome with continuity (keep and pay core players/coaches) and strong drafting and personnel management. I think that's where the Patriots, in particular, excel. They're also able to adapt, which I know is one of your main points. :)
I didn't mean to suggest that the system Norv runs, Air Corryell(sp), requires all above average players....but that it's been Norv's personal history within it. It does take an above average line. The cowboys and chargers are what everyone hangs Norv's hat on. Lots of HOFers on that Cowboy offense (the only group he ever coached than won it all) and at least 3 considerations on that charger group assuming Gates and Rivers#'s add up.(maybe not) Some suggest Norv should get considerable credit for the arc of those careers as the OC and HC. I don't really...position coaches are the hands on dudes, and for HOFers, I think pure talent trumps most of it. Regardless, outside of those two, years old, examples Turner's broadcasts have been decidedly underwhelming...Minny episode included.
True and I'm not a big Turner fan but in his defense, nobody wins with any consistency in the NFL without some big time talent on the roster.
I think there are much more differences between the system Turner runs vs what they do in NE,GB and what Manning does. Not so much in what plays are run but in how they're masked and called on a down by down basis. And the ability of the QB to make quality presnap reads.
I'm not sure why you feel Turner's system limits pre-snap reads. :confused: However, it's obviously different from the West Coast variant GB runs and the Erhardt-Perkins concepts New England uses as the base approach to their offense.
The pressure put on an o-line to be an outright power run blocking, man on man unit that also needs to be capable of holding a pocket while WRs run longer slower developing routes, creates a need for an above 'average' line IMO. We don't have that even when healthy. That's debatable for sure...but they ain't healthy so maybe it's moot.
No argument here. I don't think the offensive system is a great match for the personnel in Minnesota right now. Spielman and Zimmer need to figure that out.
As for the breakdown in personnel choices regarding TB: it was Norv banging his fist on the table demanding Spielman pick TB. Now it's Norv asking him to be somethin he's not good at while ignoring or marginalizing the things he is good at (ala CP84?)
Which is where my concern about who is really in charge of this arises.
A might premature...maybe. But if there aren't some significant changes going into next season...I. will. be. disappoint.
Cause the writing seems to be on the wall in some regard.
I really don't think they'll get the line fixed in one offseason and TB doesn't fit this system as well as he would another.
I agree but as I alluded to above, I see that as a Zimmer/Spielman issue more than a Turner issue. They hired Turner and they're the men who are supposed to have a vision for the team and make it come together. We're mid-process right now so as you said, it's a bit premature to say the writing is on the wall. There's obviously still work to do but your concerns are legitimate. To me, the apparent mismatch between TB and the system looks like it could end up being a blunder but maybe he'll prove a better match than we think or perhaps they'll make enough changes to make it all work. I'm not confident at all but I hope they will show over the next few seasons that they have a genuine vision for the offense and that it will start to come together in a big way.
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Re: Scoring

Post by The Breeze »

Jim
Rather than contrast styles and systems, I think what we're seeing boils down to needing to see some significant improvement on offense in terms of execution or the end result will be a new QB or a new system installed.
Stating the obvious...
.and it may be case of 6 to 1 half dozen in terms of what we're better off replacing if it comes to that...
I guess i'm lacking faith in seeing the improvement, cause I'm a viking fan, and I actually believe more in TB than Norv for some reason.
((sigh))
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Re: Scoring

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The Breeze wrote:Jim
Rather than contrast styles and systems, I think what we're seeing boils down to needing to see some significant improvement on offense in terms of execution or the end result will be a new QB or a new system installed.
I think that's it exactly. If they can't accomplish that it will either lead to a coaching change, a QB change or both...

... and no matter what they do, they must build a much better o-line.
Stating the obvious...
.and it may be case of 6 to 1 half dozen in terms of what we're better off replacing if it comes to that...
I guess i'm lacking faith in seeing the improvement, cause I'm a viking fan, and I actually believe more in TB than Norv for some reason.
((sigh))
I don't have too much faith in either so you're ahead of me. :(

This has been a great discussion! Thanks.
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Re: Scoring

Post by The Breeze »

Yeah! Thanks for the catharsis~
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Re: Scoring

Post by The Breeze »

:whistle:
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Re: Scoring

Post by 808vikingsfan »

Just for reference.

Here's a list of superbowl winners and where they ranked (scoring) offensively and defensively.


Year Team Defense Rank Offensive Rank CRA QB
2014 Patriots 8 4 6 Tom Brady
2013 Seahawks 1 9 5 Russell Wilson
2012 Ravens 12 10 11 Joe Flacco
2011 Giants 25 9 17 Eli Manning
2010 Packers 2 10 6 Aaron Rodgers
2009 Saints 20 1 10.5 Drew Brees
2008 Steelers 1 20 10.5 Ben Rothlisberger
2007 Giants 17 14 15.5 Eli Manning
2006 Colts 23 2 12.5 Peyton Manning
2005 Steelers 4 9 6.5 Ben Rothlisberger
2004 Patriots 2 4 3 Tom Brady
2003 Patriots 1 12 6.5 Tom Brady
2002 Buccaneers 1 18 9.5 Brad Johnson
2001 Patriots 6 6 6 Tom Brady
2000 Ravens 1 14 7.5 Tony Banks/Trent Dilfer
1999 Rams 4 1 2.5 Kurt Warner
1998 Broncos 9 2 5.5 John Elway
1997 Broncos 7 1 4 John Elway
1996 Packers 1 1 1 Brett Favre
1995 Cowboys 3 3 3 Troy Aikman
1994 49ers 6 1 3.5 Steve Young
1993 Cowboys 2 2 2 Troy Aikman
1992 Cowboys 5 2 3.5 Troy Aikman
1991 Redskins 2 1 1.5 Mark Rypien
1990 Giants 1 15 8 Phil Simms
1989 49ers 3 1 2 Joe Montana
1988 49ers 8 7 7.5 Joe Montana
1987 Redskins 6 4 5 Jay Schroeder
1986 Giants 2 8 5 Phil Simms
1985 Bears 1 2 1.5 Jim McMahon
1984 49ers 1 2 1.5 Joe Montana
1983 Raiders 13 3 8 Jim Plunkett
1982 Redskins 1 12 6.5 Joe Theismann
1981 49ers 2 7 4.5 Joe Montana
1980 Raiders 10 7 8.5 Jim Plunkett
1979 Steelers 7 1 4 Terry Bradshaw
1978 Steelers 1 5 3 Terry Bradshaw
1977 Cowboys 8 2 5 Roger Staubach
1976 Raiders 12 4 8 Ken Stabler
1975 Steelers 2 5 3.5 Terry Bradshaw
1974 Steelers 2 6 4 Joe Gilliam/Terry Bradshaw
1973 Dolphins 1 5 3 Bob Griese
1972 Dolphins 1 1 1 Earl Morrall/Bob Griese
1971 Cowboys 7 1 4 Roger Staubach/Craig Morton
1970 Colts 7 6 6.5 Johnny Unitas
1969 Chiefs 2 4 3 Len Dawson/Mike Livingston
1968 Jets 10 16 13 Joe Namath
1967 Packers 4 13 8.5 Bart Starr
1966 Packers 1 6 3.5 Bart Starr

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Re: Scoring

Post by Mothman »

808vikingsfan wrote:Just for reference.

Here's a list of superbowl winners and where they ranked (scoring) offensively and defensively.
That certainly reinforces the importance of scoring, doesn't it? Most of those teams were in the top 10 in scoring and almost all of them were in the upper half of the league in that category.

Thanks for the stats.
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Re: Scoring

Post by Raptorman »

Here, made it readable.

Here's a list of superbowl winners and where they ranked (scoring) offensively and defensively. CRA = Combined rank of Offense and Defense.

Code: Select all

Year	Team         Def    Off     CRA     QB
2014	Patriots       8     4        6    Tom Brady
2013	Seahawks       1	  9        5    Russell Wilson
2012	Ravens        12	 10       11    Joe Flacco
2011	Giants        25	  9       17    Eli Manning
2010	Packers        2	 10        6    Aaron Rodgers
2009	Saints        20	  1     10.5    Drew Brees
2008	Steelers       1	 20     10.5    Ben Rothlisberger
2007	Giants        17	 14     15.5    Eli Manning
2006	Colts         23	  2     12.5    Peyton Manning
2005	Steelers       4	  9      6.5    Ben Rothlisberger
2004	Patriots       2	  4        3    Tom Brady
2003	Patriots       1	 12      6.5    Tom Brady
2002	Buccaneers     1	 18      9.5    Brad Johnson
2001	Patriots       6	  6        6    Tom Brady
2000	Ravens         1	 14      7.5    Tony Banks/Trent Dilfer
1999	Rams           4	  1      2.5    Kurt Warner
1998	Broncos        9	  2      5.5    John Elway
1997	Broncos        7	  1        4    John Elway
1996	Packers        1	  1        1    Brett Favre
1995	Cowboys        3	  3        3    Troy Aikman
1994	49ers          6	  1      3.5    Steve Young
1993	Cowboys        2	  2        2    Troy Aikman
1992	Cowboys        5	  2      3.5    Troy Aikman
1991	Redskins       2	  1      1.5    Mark Rypien
1990	Giants         1	 15        8    Phil Simms
1989	49ers          3     1       2     Joe Montana
1988	49ers          8     7     7.5     Joe Montana
1987	Redskins       6	  4       5     Jay Schroeder
1986	Giants         2	  8       5     Phil Simms
1985	Bears          1	  2      1.5    Jim McMahon
1984	49ers          1	  2      1.5    Joe Montana
1983	Raiders       13	  3        8    Jim Plunkett
1982	Redskins       1	 12      6.5    Joe Theismann
1981	49ers          2     7      4.5    Joe Montana
1980	Raiders       10	  7      8.5    Jim Plunkett
1979	Steelers       7	  1        4    Terry Bradshaw
1978	Steelers       1	  5        3    Terry Bradshaw
1977	Cowboys        8	  2        5    Roger Staubach
1976	Raiders       12	  4        8    Ken Stabler
1975	Steelers       2	  5      3.5    Terry Bradshaw
1974	Steelers       2	  6        4    Joe Gilliam/Terry Bradshaw
1973	Dolphins       1	  5        3    Bob Griese
1972	Dolphins       1	  1        1    Earl Morrall/Bob Griese
1971	Cowboys        7	  1        4    Roger Staubach/Craig Morton
1970	Colts          7	  6      6.5    Johnny Unitas
1969	Chiefs         2	  4        3    Len Dawson/Mike Livingston
1968	Jets          10	 16       13    Joe Namath
1967	Packers        4	 13      8.5    Bart Starr
1966	Packers        1	  6      3.5    Bart Starr
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Re: Scoring

Post by The Breeze »

I don't have a sufficient device to do so, but I think it would be interesting to also know the same rankings for the superbowl opponent.
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I think the stats bear out what most assume anyway, and that is the more balanced the team the better shot they have. There are always a few exceptions...like that Giant team that took down the Pats, but a big part of that teams success was born in the resurgence of their offense in the playoffs.
That's often the case IMO. One lagging aspect of a team catches fire in the playoffs and plays way beyond their regular season rankings.
Which is why I don't think it's a bad idea for the Vikings to get wrinkly on offense later next month.
I'm not calling it...but with this fiesty defense and AD, anything could happen if they got in and composed themselves a bit better on the national stage.
There is a lot of talent on this offense.
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Re: Scoring

Post by Mothman »

Raptorman wrote:Here, made it readable.
Thanks! That's very helpful.
The Breeze wrote:I don't have a sufficient device to do so, but I think it would be interesting to also know the same rankings for the superbowl opponent.
That would be interesting...
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Re: Scoring

Post by 808vikingsfan »

Raptorman wrote:Here, made it readable.

Here's a list of superbowl winners and where they ranked (scoring) offensively and defensively. CRA = Combined rank of Offense and Defense.

Thanks.
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Re: Scoring

Post by 808vikingsfan »

Mothman wrote: That certainly reinforces the importance of scoring, doesn't it? Most of those teams were in the top 10 ins coring and almost all of them were in the upper half of the league in that category.

Thanks for the stats.

Unless you're Eli and the Giants. :D

It does show that if you don't have an elite QB, you better make sure you have a top ranked defense. Or get hot at the right time (2012 Ravens).
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