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Pondering Her Percy
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Re: Thoughts

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

Mothman wrote:Most of the complaining about Peterson I'm seeing today doesn't hold much water, as far as I'm concerned. I watched the plays last night and I watched his carries and receptions again this morning. I don't know when he supposedly left so many yards on the field. It sure looked to me like when he had a hole to run through, he hit it just fine. I don't recall any needless juking. There was one short pass where he was headed outside, saw an unblocked defender heading off his path up the sideline and he tried to cut it inside where he was met by LBs. It's possible if he had continued to the outside he would have gained a few more yards before getting pushed out but I don't think his instinct to cut back was poor. It's just that the 49ers pursuit was good. If people want a back who will just take that safer route, get an extra 2-3 yards, then the Vikes should just start Asiata. One of the reasons Peterson has been such a great back is that he follows his instincts, takes chances, makes cuts and choices other backs wouldn't necessarily make. Sometimes that may cost him a few yards he could have gained and sometimes it results in a much bigger gain. Barry Sanders was constantly criticized for that sort of decision-making too but nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Peterson had a few good runs yesterday and one terrific run after catch play, but otherwise he was looking at a jammed up line of scrimmage, being hit be penetrating defenders in the backfield, etc. He appeared a little rusty but the 49ers were clearly keying on him and the Vikes didn't do enough to open things up. I don't think he left many yards on the field at all.

If the Vikes want to get Peterson going, they have to block better and they have to commit to playing him and running him. He can't gain yards standing on the sidelines and unless he's able to break a big gain, he's simply not going to put up big numbers against a disciplined defense with a mere 10 carries. The 49ers focused on him. Everyone is going to focus on him and it will be that way until the Vikes passing game makes teams pay enough to adopt a different strategy.

If Peterson had been running behind the SF line last night, with the way they were opening holes and pushing Vikes defenders around, he might have gained 200 yards.

It all starts up front, folks.
I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees it this way. Just shocked that so many want to sit there and throw AP under the bus when he was probably the least of our problems last night. One being the QB. However, this is week 1 and I'm not overly concerned right now. I know we have a better offense and defense than what they showed last night. We just straight up had a bad game.

Look at teams like Philly and Seattle. Both favorites in the NFC and both losers to much lesser teams on the road.
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
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84BreaksAnkles
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Re: Thoughts

Post by 84BreaksAnkles »

few quick thoughts before film analysis which i will post later this week (when I can see the all-22)

However, for now here is our offensive breakdown::

green
= good
yellow = meh
orange = concerning
red = bad

Total eligible plays: 54 (I didn't count the very last play of the fist half for some reason)

66.6% of our plays were out of the shotgun last night? that's baffling and angering to me.

Shotgun:36
-4WR (Rudy Split Out): 17 8/17 successful - -28yds rushing, 3 sacks - 100 yds passing 1INT on 10/13 throws
nice throw incomplete sideline to johnson,
the Clemmings sack,
completion to jerick -2yds,
completion to asiata +4yds,
completion to wallace +9yds,
completion to rudy +19yds excellent protection - check all-22),
completion to rudy +19yds
Adrian +0yds,
incomplete to wright deep- bad route? bad ball?,
completion to jerick +10yds,
Overthrow interception,
completion to johnson +9yds,
completion to rudy +10yds,
completion to Asia +21 yds,
sacked -6yds,
completion to patterson +1yd,
sacked -14yds


-3WR 1TE: 15 7/15 successful - 4yds rushing, 1 sack - 70yds passing on 7/10 throws
Pressure incomplete to wright,
pressure misscommunication? overthrow incomplete to wright,
Adrian +1 yd,
Teddy Sacked (Huge pressure),
Teddy Scrambles +5yds Great Protection (No one open? or Ted too hesitant - check all-22),
4th&3 completion to rudy for +2yds,
Completion to Adrian +17yds (Beast),
incomplete to ellison (hit him in both hands),
completion to wallace +17yds,
Adrian +5yds,
adrian motions outside and completion to him for +2yds on 3rd&4,
completion to wallace +12yds,
Adrian +1yd,
completion to rudy +3yds,
completion to asia +7yds


-2WR 2TE: 4 2/4 successful - 5yds passing on 2/3 throws - garbage protection, 1 sack
incomplete play action (no time, overthrown),
completion to rhett at FB +3yds,
Rhett ellison split out wide? Sacked -10yds,
completion to wallace +2yds,




Under Center:17
- 2WR 1TE 1FB: 5 3/5 successful - 22yds rushing
Adrian +4yds,
Adrian +2yds,
Jerick +15yds,
Adrian +1yd,
bootleg under pressure incomplete,


-2WR 2TE: 8 6/8 successful - 22yds rushing - 37yds passing on 4/5 throws
Play action pass to wallace +19yds,
Adrian +7yds,
Play-action deep bomb incomplete to wallace (Nice throw, obviously egregious PI),
Jerick +4yds,
Jerick +1yd,
Play-action completion to johnson +18yds,
Play-action protection breakdown ted scrambles +10yds,
completion to wallace +4yds,


-1WR 2TE 1FB: 4 4/4 successful - 13yds rushing - 2 first downs
Play-action completion to Adrian +2yds,
Adrian +9yds (Really nice run),
Adrian +1yd (first down),
play action teddy bootleg +1yd (First down),

Hopefully we can all see the trend here- GTFO OF THE SHOTGUN NORV-- :wallbang: 10 carries? is pitiful
Realisticly, our defense provided every opportunity for our football team to win this game and especially early on. If we had a decent offensive gameplan we could have been up 21-7 at the half....
Last edited by 84BreaksAnkles on Tue Sep 15, 2015 3:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Please just watch(04:39-05:18):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxXCuSyj18M&t=4m39s
This is a dog.
Compare that to this guy (00:46-01:01):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar3ioQywcAc&t=0m45s
"It's ok to hit the bag"
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Re: Thoughts

Post by VikingLord »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees it this way. Just shocked that so many want to sit there and throw AP under the bus when he was probably the least of our problems last night. One being the QB. However, this is week 1 and I'm not overly concerned right now. I know we have a better offense and defense than what they showed last night. We just straight up had a bad game.

Look at teams like Philly and Seattle. Both favorites in the NFC and both losers to much lesser teams on the road.
I agree with both of you. I wasn't impressed with any aspect of the Vikings offense last night, from Bridgewater to AD to the offensive line to the gameplan. The receivers weren't that bad I guess, although they seemed to struggle to get open and/or Bridgewater couldn't find them. There were bright spots for individual players (AD carrying 4 tacklers for around 5 extra yards comes to mind), but the overall execution by pretty much everyone left a lot to be desired.

As for whether this will be a blip they recover from or is a deeper trend, that I'm not sure about. I see some fundamental flaws on this team that I'm not sure can be fixed during the course of a season. The main flaw is not on the offensive side, but is the run defense which is pretty much one of the worst I've seen. I'd like to believe the 49ers just have this awesome running attack, and it may turn out they do and are way better at running the ball than anyone expected, but it could also be true that the Vikings just lack the personnel up front to consistently counter a team that runs the ball at them. Jim pointed out that the 49ers were more or less equal opportunity in terms of rushing last night, gashing the Vikings for over 100 yards both on outside and inside runs while surrendering some ungodly average of 5+ yards per carry. They can't fix that and it's going to be a LONG season.

On the offensive side, its clear the offensive line needs to continue working together. I am more optimistic they can become a competent unit yet this year, but time is not on their side. I think how that unit goes, so will go guys like Bridgewater, AD and the receivers. AD can't consistently run without blocking and Bridgewater can't consistently pass without it. When the opposing team rushes 3 against 6 blockers and the QB is not only pressured, but sacked, that is a significant problem.

I also think its worth calling out Turner over his play and personnel selection. I was quite frankly stunned when I saw AD just standing on the sideline while McKinnon got carries in the 1st half. I thought maybe AD was hurt or something. No disrespect to McKinnon, but AD has to get more than 10 carries in a game. He's a prime time weapon until he proves otherwise or the Vikings find somebody better. He's had games where he struggled to get going, but that doesn't change his potential to break a big play on any touch. Nobody else at RB on the Vikings has proven they are capable of the same. I don't know for the life of me why AD is cooling his heels on 1st and 2nd downs, but if that continues and the Vikings continue to struggle on offense I think people will start demanding answers from Turner and Zimmer.
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Re: Thoughts

Post by Norv Zimmer »

R-E-L-A-X !!!

Seriously it is the first game. Almost all teams struggle to get up to speed the first game. Seattle and green bay and new England all started slow last year.

We are still super bowl bound folks.

Glass half full people!
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Re: Thoughts

Post by Norv Zimmer »

If they still look like this after this Sundays game I will be worried. Well, not really worried because we will take a top offensive lineman with one of the top picks in the draft.

On a side note, why do the Vikings not run 2 TE sets with Rudolph and Pruitt? Seems like it would assist with extra blockers in the run game and would do wonders I think with playaction. Seems to work good for New England, San fran.
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Re: Thoughts

Post by Odlid »

So tired of being a fan of the most under-achieving franchise in the NFL (Bills & Browns fans can probably relate). It is a crying shame that that the Bucs, Rams, Colts, and Saints have all laid claim to the Lombardi Trophy before the Vikings. So much hype about drastic improvements during this past preseason, but I did not see any area where the team has improved. The Vikes have zero pass rush, can't stop the run, and the secondary still sucks. The offensive game plan is a joke. Can A.P. still carry this team? Who knows, because he isn't getting the ball...

Here we go again, yet another miserable season... :wallbang:
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Re: Thoughts

Post by SP1966 »

While Peterson, and the entire offensive game plan is hampered by an ineffective line they're not helping him any by running him out of the shotgun 90% of the time. He gets that ball at a virtual standstill while the defense is already moving at full speed.

There was little that was surprising about the offenses performance given the line issues. The defense on the other hand, what the hell was that? I understand they were back on their heels from the first snap and SF kept their tempo high meaning the combination of that and an offense that couldn't sustain drives meant the D was pretty well spent by half time. Even still, SF was never really stopped by anything other than their own mistakes. This team has no chance if the D cannot pull more than their own weight.
84BreaksAnkles
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Re: Thoughts

Post by 84BreaksAnkles »

SP1966 wrote:they're not helping him any by running him out of the shotgun
That's very true.. I mean he looked violent and fresh on a few(3) runs from under center
Please just watch(04:39-05:18):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxXCuSyj18M&t=4m39s
This is a dog.
Compare that to this guy (00:46-01:01):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar3ioQywcAc&t=0m45s
"It's ok to hit the bag"
84BreaksAnkles
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Re: Thoughts

Post by 84BreaksAnkles »

Odlid wrote:the secondary still sucks
I disagree. Xavier and Harrison look as I expected, really good. Sure Terrance and Sendejo/Blanton aren't ideal, but they did their job less than 200 yds in the air when our defensive ends can't contain to save their life? Kaep was regularly buying 4-7 extra seconds for his guys to get open and really other than a few blown coverages by or LBs, the secondary held up. More worried about our lack of gap responsibilities by our front 7. When Hyde is able to gash you every play, you have to devote more resources to stopping the run, putting more strain on our DBs. They played decently.
Odlid wrote:Can A.P. still carry this team? Who knows, because he isn't getting the ball...
This is all too true. 66.8% of the plays out of shotgun? For whole 3-and-outs at a time? 10 carries? it is a joke
Please just watch(04:39-05:18):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxXCuSyj18M&t=4m39s
This is a dog.
Compare that to this guy (00:46-01:01):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar3ioQywcAc&t=0m45s
"It's ok to hit the bag"
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Re: Thoughts

Post by dead_poet »

SP1966 wrote:While Peterson, and the entire offensive game plan is hampered by an ineffective line they're not helping him any by running him out of the shotgun 90% of the time.
FYI:
@mattvensel All the talk about Adrian Peterson running out of the shotgun... He did it just four times for a total of seven yards, per @PFF. #Vikings
“Some people think football is a matter of life and death. I assure you, it's much more serious than that.” --- Bill Shankly
84BreaksAnkles
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Re: Thoughts

Post by 84BreaksAnkles »

dead_poet wrote:
FYI:
well that's 40% of his carries.. lol

The point is not just about running out of the shotgun. It's about our offense lining up in shotgun 2/3 of the time.. I think its dumb. I think we should be first and foremost a ground team since Zimmer raves about wanting "tough" guys. Tough isn't lining up in shotgun like a scared nancy 2/3 of the time
Please just watch(04:39-05:18):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxXCuSyj18M&t=4m39s
This is a dog.
Compare that to this guy (00:46-01:01):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar3ioQywcAc&t=0m45s
"It's ok to hit the bag"
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Mothman
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Re: Thoughts

Post by Mothman »

84BreaksAnkles wrote: well that's 40% of his carries.. lol

The point is not just about running out of the shotgun. It's about our offense lining up in shotgun 2/3 of the time.. I think its dumb. I think we should be first and foremost a ground team since Zimmer raves about wanting "tough" guys. Tough isn't lining up in shotgun like a scared nancy 2/3 of the time
LOL!

Sorry, I was just amused by the way you phrased that. I actually agree with your point. :)
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Re: Thoughts

Post by dead_poet »

84BreaksAnkles wrote: well that's 40% of his carries.. lol

The point is not just about running out of the shotgun. It's about our offense lining up in shotgun 2/3 of the time.. I think its dumb. I think we should be first and foremost a ground team since Zimmer raves about wanting "tough" guys. Tough isn't lining up in shotgun like a scared nancy 2/3 of the time
I understand the frustration but running out of shotgun is not "dumb." It can be effective. Peyton Manning has been doing that most of his career! In the last two regular seasons, the Broncos ran 1,594 plays from shotgun or pistol formations and 629 with the quarterback under center -- just 28.30 percent. C.J. Anderson didn't seem to have a lot of problems rushing out of those formations.

FWIW in the shotgun, the Broncos ran on 30.9 percent of their plays and passed on 69.1 percent the last two years. With the quarterback under center, they ran 65.3 percent of the time and passed 34.7 percent.

According to ESPN Stats and Information, Peterson ran 40 times out of the shotgun in 2012 and 2013, averaging 4.93 yards per carry. That's pretty good, though it is nearly half a yard below Peterson's overall average (5.36) and his figure with the quarterback under center (5.39).
“Some people think football is a matter of life and death. I assure you, it's much more serious than that.” --- Bill Shankly
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Re: Thoughts

Post by losperros »

VikingLord wrote:As for whether this will be a blip they recover from or is a deeper trend, that I'm not sure about. I see some fundamental flaws on this team that I'm not sure can be fixed during the course of a season. The main flaw is not on the offensive side, but is the run defense which is pretty much one of the worst I've seen. I'd like to believe the 49ers just have this awesome running attack, and it may turn out they do and are way better at running the ball than anyone expected, but it could also be true that the Vikings just lack the personnel up front to consistently counter a team that runs the ball at them. Jim pointed out that the 49ers were more or less equal opportunity in terms of rushing last night, gashing the Vikings for over 100 yards both on outside and inside runs while surrendering some ungodly average of 5+ yards per carry. They can't fix that and it's going to be a LONG season.

On the offensive side, its clear the offensive line needs to continue working together. I am more optimistic they can become a competent unit yet this year, but time is not on their side. I think how that unit goes, so will go guys like Bridgewater, AD and the receivers. AD can't consistently run without blocking and Bridgewater can't consistently pass without it. When the opposing team rushes 3 against 6 blockers and the QB is not only pressured, but sacked, that is a significant problem.

I also think its worth calling out Turner over his play and personnel selection. I was quite frankly stunned when I saw AD just standing on the sideline while McKinnon got carries in the 1st half. I thought maybe AD was hurt or something. No disrespect to McKinnon, but AD has to get more than 10 carries in a game. He's a prime time weapon until he proves otherwise or the Vikings find somebody better. He's had games where he struggled to get going, but that doesn't change his potential to break a big play on any touch. Nobody else at RB on the Vikings has proven they are capable of the same. I don't know for the life of me why AD is cooling his heels on 1st and 2nd downs, but if that continues and the Vikings continue to struggle on offense I think people will start demanding answers from Turner and Zimmer.
I agree with the above. Thing is, Edward, I'm not convinced at all that the run defense can be fixed this season. After all, it sucked last year as well and apparently hasn't been fixed.

As for the OL, I really think a huge part of the problem is the absence of good talent. Losing Sullivan and even Loadholt has hurt, and what's left on the line just isn't getting the job done. I realize it's early in the season and they need time to gel, but average to below average players will never be a consistent group.

I questioned Turner a lot last year. I'm trying to give both he and especially Zimmer some trust. But as I said in another post, I think Turner may not be as effective as he once was as an offensive coordinator. I hope I'm wrong.
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Re: Thoughts

Post by Texas Vike »

losperros wrote: Losing the battle of the trenches on both sides of the ball is beyond irritating. What's worse, it affects everything the team is trying to do.

Seriously, can the Vikings clean up problems that have been around for a while in just one season? I'm not so sure.

I'm hoping the team can improve enough so that they're at least difficult to beat at home. I'm pretty much used to seeing the Vikings implode during road games.

What is WITH that phenomenon? It has been a tendency (losing on the road and losing in prime time) over the course of various coaching staffs and with different QBs/ major players etc. What is it about the Vikings that makes them abhorrent on the road and when on the national stage? Remember 98? Moss was ELECTRIC in prime time. Do we simply lack, collectively, whatever it is that made Moss better in such situations? I could see how being a dome team might make us soft in less artificial environments, but we've been playing at TCF for a bit now... so who knows if that's an issue.

I want to see Kendricks and Waynes sooner rather than later. Trial by fire. The other options are brutal anyways.

Lastly, a sincere question for posters with more technical knowledge of schemes than I have: Is our D's failure vs. the run a personnel issue, a scheme issue, an issue in players not fulfilling their duties (Zim alluded to this in his presser) or another issue? It seems to my amateur eye to be a real lack of physical strength in the front four. They just got manhandled. I'm sure there's more to it than that, would love to hear some thoughts.
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