Turner: 'Challenges ahead' for Vikings' retooled o-line

[dead_poet]

Well, this is concerning.

http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Norv ... line090115

"We have a lot of work to do on the offensive line and we don't have a whole lot of time to get it done before the [Sept. 14] opener," Turner said Tuesday. "We have to get something out of every opportunity we have."

With less than two weeks before the regular season opener in San Francisco, center John Sullivan continued to sit out with a back injury on Tuesday as the team errs on the side of caution with their O-line leader. He hasn't practiced since Aug. 18, just days after right tackle Phil Loadholt tore an Achilles tendon on the second play in an Aug. 15 exhibition against Tampa Bay.

Aside from injury concerns, the Vikings are still working in Mike Harris, last year's swing tackle, at right guard and now are pressed with expediting rookie T.J. Clemmings' development as Loadholt's replacement. Swing tackle candidate Carter Bykowski was waived/injured on Monday with a torn pec, further thinning the depth at tackle, which has seen David Yankey move from guard to the outside and rookie Austin Shepherd compete with him for the still-vacant swing tackle role.

"We're working on it right now," Turner said of the team's swing tackle. "[Thursday's exhibition] will be another opportunity for those guys to show themselves. I think both have had highlights and bright spots and both have had struggles."

[Mothman]

At this point, it appears they didn't do enough to address the quality/experience level/depth of the o-line this offseason and now they're in a precarious position. I say "at this point" because it's possible their first and second year linemen will come through admirably when called upon. However, I still believe not addressing the OL in free agency and then waiting until R4 of the draft to select a lineman was questionable, if not borderline reckless. I know that's a harsh assessment but the OL was clearly an area they needed to improve.

It makes no sense to me to have a great RB, a young QB they hope to develop into a franchise player, and not invest heavily in blocking to protect the latter and make room for the former. Since Spielman came to the Vikes, and since they drafted Peterson in 2007, they've selected precisely two offensive linemen (Loadholt and Kalil) in the first 3 rounds of the draft and only 3 higher than the fifth round (Clemmings was selected in R4 this year).

OL drafted during Spielman's tenure with the team:

2008 — John Sullivan, R6
2009 — Phil Loadholt, R2
2010 — Chris DeGeare, R5
2011 — DeMarcus Love, R6
Brandon Fusco, R6
2012 — Matt Kalil, R1
2013 — Jeff Baca, R6
Travis Bond, R7
2014 — David Yankey, R5
2015 — T. J. Clemmings, R4
Tyrus Thompson, R6
B. J. DuBose, R6
Austin Shephard, R7

That's 13 o-linemen drafted in 9 years, over half of them drafted in R6 or later. I don't think the Vikes have signed any high profile o-linemen as free agents since Spielman was hired (unless someone thinks Berger or Charlie Johnson qualify). Hutchinson joined the Vikes in 2006. Am I forgetting a significant player?

It's great that they've been able to successfully develop a few late round players like Sullivan and Fusco into quality starters but I think Spielman has to start devoting more resources to this crucial area of the team. YMMV.

[dead_poet]

Thanks for the research and I agree wholeheartedly, with the caveat this team had a lot of holes needing to be filled post-2009/2010 so I understand that not everything can be fixed. But a number of Vikings fans (myself included) really pushed for more help on the offensive line given its importance. Sounds like we were interested in Clint Boling (re-signed with Cincy for $26 million over five years, an average of $5.2 million annually), but I heard/read very little else on the offensive line side. Still wondering why they didn't take a flyer on La'El Collins in the seventh round.

There simply cannot be any more injuries if we want the offense (Teddy) to thrive/survive. The good news is that, at the moment, there are quality free agent options after this season (Solder, Castonzo, Okung, Smith, Whitworth, Penn, Barksdale). I think Whitworth has the best chance of signing here with his familiarity with Zimmer and apparent disdain for the Bengals. Of note, it sounds like Titans guard Andy Levitre is about to be cut. He was a high-profile free agent acquisition in 2013. I'm not sure what caused his fall, if it was injuries (hip surgery, two knee scopes & appendectomy) or some schematic thing (ranked #13 overall guard by PFF in 2013, top-ranked pass-blocking guard in 2012. Was around #60 last year overall). Unfortunately he is more of a G/C than Tackle/Guard but could provide competent depth. He's also just 29.

[Mothman]

Thanks for the research and I agree wholeheartedly, with the caveat this team had a lot of holes needing to be filled post-2009/2010 so I understand that not everything can be fixed. But a number of Vikings fans (myself included) really pushed for more help on the offensive line given its importance. Sounds like we were interested in Clint Boling (re-signed with Cincy for $26 million over five years, an average of $5.2 million annually), but I heard/read very little else on the offensive line side. Still wondering why they didn't take a flyer on La'El Collins in the seventh round.

You make a good point with the caveat. When a team has many needs it's obviously difficult to address them all in a short time span.

There simply cannot be any more injuries if we want the offense (Teddy) to thrive/survive. The good news is that, at the moment, there are quality free agent options after this season (Solder, Castonzo, Okung, Smith, Whitworth, Penn, Barksdale). I think Whitworth has the best chance of signing here with his familiarity with Zimmer and apparent disdain for the Bengals. Of note, it sounds like Titans guard Andy Levitre is about to be cut. He was a high-profile free agent acquisition in 2013. I'm not sure what caused his fall, if it was injuries (hip surgery, two knee scopes & appendectomy) or some schematic thing (ranked #13 overall guard by PFF in 2013, top-ranked pass-blocking guard in 2012. Was around #60 last year overall). Unfortunately he is more of a G/C than Tackle/Guard but could provide competent depth. He's also just 29.

Thanks for the info. I wonder how many of them will actually hit the market.

I don't know what happened with Levitre either but it sounds like injuries may have taken a heavy toll on his game.

[mansquatch]

This has been a consistent scenario over the years of Spielman. Typically a group will have holes and need to be addressed. OL has been on the list for quite a long time, but so have WR, LB, Defensive Secondary, and most notably QB. They've drafted heavily and played in FA to fix many of the gaps, and now it looks like LB, WR, and QB are finally starting to gain traction. The Secondary and LB groups are now probably the best we've seen in Purple since the mid 1990s. In some ways every GM deals with this and if we had drafted one more OL, we'd probably be barking about LB or CB right now more than we are. So it is a trade off.

Of course on the more cynical side, one could debate whether using 4 picks on CP84 was the correct move, but hindsight is always 20/20.

In the defense of the FO, I doubt any team in the NFL would be sitting pretty when 40% of their starting OL is gong into week 1 injured. Hopefully Sullivan can get through this and that number will drop to 20%.

[Mothman]

This has been a consistent scenario over the years of Spielman. Typically a group will have holes and need to be addressed. OL has been on the list for quite a long time, but so have WR, LB, Defensive Secondary, and most notably QB. They've drafted heavily and played in FA to fix many of the gaps, and now it looks like LB, WR, and QB are finally starting to gain traction. The Secondary and LB groups are now probably the best we've seen in Purple since the mid 1990s. In some ways every GM deals with this and if we had drafted one more OL, we'd probably be barking about LB or CB right now more than we are. So it is a trade off.

Of course on the more cynical side, one could debate whether using 4 picks on CP84 was the correct move, but hindsight is always 20/20.

In the defense of the FO, I doubt any team in the NFL would be sitting pretty when 40% of their starting OL is gong into week 1 injured. Hopefully Sullivan can get through this and that number will drop to 20%.

You're right, every GM has to make decisions about how to build the team but I think the Vikings front office deserves to be taken to task in this particular department. I realize they've had to rebuild a number of areas of the team but I still go back to the fundamental importance of blocking when it comes to offensive success. I think a certain logic should apply to the team-building process and once a team drafts and commits to a young QB (a process the Vikes have basically been in since 2011), commitment to building a top notch o-line to protect him strikes me as essential. Peterson's presence just reinforces the significance of having a strong, deep OL, because when the line is opening holes for him, he's one of the NFL's best weapons.

More than the move to trade for CP84 (which, as you said, is debatable), I question the choices made this offseason. Bridgewater was sacked 39 times in just 12.5 games last year, an average of over 3 sacks per game! The Vikes knew they needed to add at least a starting guard to their OL but they didn't make a big OL move in free agency and they drafted Waynes, Kendricks and Hunter before even drafting an offensive lineman. I understand the "need vs. best player available" argument but they passed up some very good linemen. Now they're thin up front and they're starting Harris at guard, which I suspect will be a lot like starting Johnson at guard. Clemmings is a good athlete and hopefully he's a quick learner because I think defenses will test the right side of that line early and often. I expect the 49ers to attack those two players in week 1.

[dead_poet]

Of course on the more cynical side, one could debate whether using 4 picks on CP84 was the correct move, but hindsight is always 20/20

I wonder who the Vikings could've selected had they not elected to trade up. With the pick the Patriots selected LB Jamie Collins, who has the makings of a very solid linebacker, but the Vikings got Hodges a couple of rounds later. Safety D.J. Swearinger went #57 but his career has had some ups and downs to this point. The Chiefs got Kelce at #63 overall. The first offensive lineman that jumps out at me is Larry Warford (#65 overall) followed by Terron Armstead (75), who is shaping up to be a top-15 tackle. Tyrann Mathieu (#69) would've been nice to have but he had his own concerns coming out of LSU. Other than Warford and Armstead I'm not seeing any other offensive linemen that, in hindsight, may have been legitimate solutions. But I just gave the draft a quick once-over so there might be a few other guys I'm missing.

[dead_poet]

I question the choices made this offseason. Bridgewater was sacked 39 times in just 12.5 games last year, an average of over 3 sacks per game! The Vikes knew they needed to add at least a starting guard to their OL but they didn't make a big OL move in free agency and they drafted Waynes, Kendricks and Hunter before even drafting an offensive lineman. I understand the "need vs. best player available" argument but they passed up some very good linemen. Now they're thin up front and they're starting Harris at guard, which I suspect will be a lot like starting Johnson at guard. Clemmings is a good athlete and hopefully he's a quick learner because I think defenses will test the right side of that line early and often. I expect the 49ers to attack those two players in week 1.

I'm upset, too, that they didn't land a guy in free agency (maybe next season as I mentioned before. I think it'll help if the Vikings continue to improve their record, Zimmer continues to prove he's a coach you want to play for and also with a new, bright, shiny INDOOR stadium to play in with upgraded practice/locker room facilities). Regarding the draft, that's always a give/take I suppose. I mean, instead of Waynes, in round 1 the available offensive linemen were: Andrus Peat, Cameron Erving, Cedric Ogbuehi, D. J. Humphries & Laken Tomlinson. At #11 overall the one guy I wanted was Erving (over Waynes, actually). The others, I don't know. It would've been a hard sell for me at that draft slot. Maybe Peat. Ogbuehi wouldn't have contributed this season anyway (still recovering from a torn ACL). D.J. Humphries has not been doing very well according to Bruce Arians "Humphries shows up 'once a week'" (in terms of performance). I really liked Tomlinson and for me he was a legit consideration in the second round but I didn't think he was a legit option at #9.

In the second round, I really don't know if I would've traded Kendricks for any O-linemen at this point. Guys available: Mitch Morse, Jake Fisher (upside down the road but big adjustments coming from Oregon), Rob Havenstein, Ty Sambrailo, Ali Marpet. I liked Marpet but I didn't have a second-round grade on him. It'll be interesting to see how these guys progress but I prognosticate that I ultimately would've been upset if we passed on Kendricks for any of these guys.

In the third round, the guy we both liked (A.J. Cann) was already gone to Jacksonville (though you can make the case the Vikings could've selected him with their second-round pick). Hroniss Grasu, Jamon Brown, John Miller and Chaz Green were guys available and selected by a team in round 3. I also liked Miller and it looks like he'll be starting in Buffalo. Jamon Brown is also starting at guard in St. Louis. This was the round I was really hoping for a guard (Cann, Miller, Brown in particular). But would either of them beat out Harris? I'm not sure, but they probably would've provided better competition.

So the way things shaped up, I'm more disappointed not acquiring a starting-caliber free agent lineman with the need to upgrade the line immediately vs. the draft. Hopefully Hunter proves Rick right and has a high ceiling and Harris surprises many.

[fiestavike]

I'm upset, too, that they didn't land a guy in free agency (maybe next season as I mentioned before. I think it'll help if the Vikings continue to improve their record, Zimmer continues to prove he's a coach you want to play for and also with a new, bright, shiny INDOOR stadium to play in with upgraded practice/locker room facilities). Regarding the draft, that's always a give/take I suppose. I mean, instead of Waynes, in round 1 the available offensive linemen were: Andrus Peat, Cameron Erving, Cedric Ogbuehi, D. J. Humphries & Laken Tomlinson. At #11 overall the one guy I wanted was Erving. The others, I don't know. It would've been a hard sell for me at that draft slot. Maybe Peat. Ogbuehi would've have contributed this season anyway (still recovering from a torn ACL). D.J. Humphries has not been doing very well according to Bruce Arians "Humphries shows up 'once a week'" (in terms of performance). I really liked Tomlinson and for me he was a legit consideration in the second round but I didn't think he was a legit option at #9.

In the second round, I really don't know if I would've traded Kendricks for any O-linemen at this point. Guys available: Mitch Morse, Jake Fisher (upside down the road but big adjustments coming from Oregon), Rob Havenstein, Ty Sambrailo, Ali Marpet. I liked Marpet but I didn't have a second-round grade on him. It'll be interesting to see how these guys progress but I prognosticate that I ultimately would've been upset if we passed on Kendricks for any of these guys.

In the third round, the guy we both liked (A.J. Cann) was already gone to Jacksonville (though you can make the case the Vikings could've selected him with their second-round pick). Hroniss Grasu, Jamon Brown, John Miller and Chaz Green were guys available and selected by a team in round 3. I also liked Miller and it looks like he'll be starting in Buffalo. Jamon Brown is also starting at guard in St. Louis. This was the round I was really hoping for a guard (Miller, Brown in particular). But would either of them beat out Harris? I'm not sure, but they probably would've provided better competition.

So the way things shaped up, I'm more disappointed not acquiring a starting-caliber free agent lineman with the need to upgrade the line immediately vs. the draft. Hopefully Hunter proves Rick right and has a high ceiling.

Interesting breakdown DP, thanks for looking that up. I do think its getting harder to find NFL calibur Tackles out of the college game with everybody running spread offenses. I'm a firm believer in building an offense through the line, but I'm not sure how great a lot of those guys will end up being.

I was hoping we might get shaq mason to play Guard, but I have no idea how his transition to the NFL is going.

[DK Sweets]

Great research, DP. I feel like you really did a great job supporting your point, and I agree: it would be great if the Viking had fixed this O-line, but the pieces didn't fall right and they have really added depth at quite a few positions.

[fiestavike]

Don't rule out the possibility of late trades as we approach cutdowns and teams might try to get something for a guy they may have to let go. If the Vikings aren't happy with their tackle depth, that wouldn't come as a huge surprise. I think with Berger they are probably ok on the interior, but adding a G could allow Harris/Clemmings to fall into a swing tackle role...

Frankly, I doubt they'll find a guard better than Harris off another teams bubble.

[Mothman]

I'm upset, too, that they didn't land a guy in free agency (maybe next season as I mentioned before. I think it'll help if the Vikings continue to improve their record, Zimmer continues to prove he's a coach you want to play for and also with a new, bright, shiny INDOOR stadium to play in with upgraded practice/locker room facilities). Regarding the draft, that's always a give/take I suppose. I mean, instead of Waynes, in round 1 the available offensive linemen were: Andrus Peat, Cameron Erving, Cedric Ogbuehi, D. J. Humphries & Laken Tomlinson. At #11 overall the one guy I wanted was Erving (over Waynes, actually). The others, I don't know. It would've been a hard sell for me at that draft slot. Maybe Peat. Ogbuehi wouldn't have contributed this season anyway (still recovering from a torn ACL). D.J. Humphries has not been doing very well according to Bruce Arians "Humphries shows up 'once a week'" (in terms of performance). I really liked Tomlinson and for me he was a legit consideration in the second round but I didn't think he was a legit option at #9.

In the second round, I really don't know if I would've traded Kendricks for any O-linemen at this point. Guys available: Mitch Morse, Jake Fisher (upside down the road but big adjustments coming from Oregon), Rob Havenstein, Ty Sambrailo, Ali Marpet. I liked Marpet but I didn't have a second-round grade on him. It'll be interesting to see how these guys progress but I prognosticate that I ultimately would've been upset if we passed on Kendricks for any of these guys.

In the third round, the guy we both liked (A.J. Cann) was already gone to Jacksonville (though you can make the case the Vikings could've selected him with their second-round pick). Hroniss Grasu, Jamon Brown, John Miller and Chaz Green were guys available and selected by a team in round 3. I also liked Miller and it looks like he'll be starting in Buffalo. Jamon Brown is also starting at guard in St. Louis. This was the round I was really hoping for a guard (Cann, Miller, Brown in particular). But would either of them beat out Harris? I'm not sure, but they probably would've provided better competition.

So the way things shaped up, I'm more disappointed not acquiring a starting-caliber free agent lineman with the need to upgrade the line immediately vs. the draft. Hopefully Hunter proves Rick right and has a high ceiling and Harris surprises many.

Good post. Thanks for the research! As you already know, I wanted Cann in the second round. That's the move I was hoping they'd make. However, it was the choice to take Hunter over any of the players you listed above that really bothered me. More to the point (and the reason I included the Vikes OL draft history above), at this stage I question whether Spielman considers the o-line the priority it should be. Some of his actions, (drafting Loadholt and Kalil, re-signing the former) suggest he does but overall, I wonder... it seems like he's satisfied to invest mid-to-late round picks in the line and stick with a starter like Johnson for years. Meanwhile, we've seen Peterson have to break a LOT of tackles behind the line of scrimmage. We saw Favre take a beating in 2010. Ponder took a beating from 2011-2013 and Vikings QBs were sacked 51 times last season. The Vikes have been in the bottom third of the league in sacks allowed 3 of the last 4 years.

I'm not trying to sound unfair but I am frustrated, especially when I hear Turner talking about the offense being thin up front. I know they're dealing with injuries but this is a problem they could have taken more steps to avoid. It was apparent to everyone going into the offseason.

[S197]

Tough one. On one hand, as it's been stated, we've invested (and in Phil's case reinvested) in both tackle spots. Sullivan and Fusco are generally seen as above average so that leaves Harris who has held his own albeit in preseason.

So taking that into consideration and without hindsight of the injuries, I think Spielman utilized the shotgun approach, bringing in a bunch of guys for depth. He has proven to be able to get quality starters out of late round picks.

On the other hand, as Jim mentioned, the line has been rather poor the past few years although last year was plagued with injuries.

So it's either a case of doing a overhaul or being content with your starters and drafting for depth. Spielman evidently went with the latter and we'll see how it goes.

My biggest criticism would be not bringing in anyone after Phil went down. Seems odd to not give a rookie some competition, especially one that is almost universally seen as raw not to mention there are decent FAs available.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[84BreaksAnkles]

The implications of our line play, particularly on the right side, will be irrationally huge this year. With two new guys over there, opposing D's have many different opportunities to disrupt plays..

For example; If I was a coach with a pretty solid front 4/3, you could just undoubtedly send extra bodies and blitz resources towards the untested tandem of Harris and Clemmings, however in my opinion, the more effective option would be to trust your 2 guys to win their one-on-one matchups with the above two, and concentrate all your extra pressure resources on breaking kalil/fusco/sullivan.

What are we going to do if either Mike or T.J. consistently get beat by average to above-average players in one-on-one situations? We could slide our protections to the right or keep TEs in or use our RBs to chip, but then you have the option of sending 1-2 extra guys towards the left side, and trying to win that way..

In the run game, this could be huge aswell.

[jackal]

I am hoping we get lucky and Clemmings holds his own in the league. I am not real worried about Harris
as he played well last season when Loadholt went down at RT. I am wondering if we don't pick up a cut
tackle for the 53 or at least a flexible OL