Mark Craig: Defense grades well, Offense will need building

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Pondering Her Percy
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Re: Mark Craig: Defense grades well, Offense will need build

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

Purple bruise wrote:I think that the Vikes are fortunate to have one of the better GMs in the entire league, who has the balls to make crucial trades in the draft, witness the last several drafts :rock:
I agree as well but be careful because you could be stirring up an all out war with that comment :D
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Re: Mark Craig: Defense grades well, Offense will need build

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

frosted wrote: I think Munnerlyn should exclusively play the slot. I don't think he should be playing outside in our base defense. I don't care what he's making, tbh. In any case, we play so much nickel, he's essentially starting anyways if we dedicate him to playing only in nickel packages. I think he's much better playing the slot than being the de facto starting CB playing on the outside in our base defense.

YMMV.
Well yeah that's what I'm saying as well. Have him only play the slot. As for the money part, I was just saying I don't want a guy on our team making that kind of money as a #4 or #5 CB barely playing. I just wasn't sure if you were saying actually replace him in general or just put him in the slot but now I got ya!
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Re: Mark Craig: Defense grades well, Offense will need build

Post by Demi »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: I agree as well but be careful because you could be stirring up an all out war with that comment :D
:evil: Like trading 4 picks for a guy who a competent offensive coordinator benches for a guy signed off a practice squad?

Don't underestimate what a good veteran coaching staff is doing for the lack of talent they have. The fact we're even close to .500 with the injuries and complete lack of depth this team has should speak for the coaches...
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Re: Mark Craig: Defense grades well, Offense will need build

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

Demi wrote: :evil: Like trading 4 picks for a guy who a competent offensive coordinator benches for a guy signed off a practice squad?

Don't underestimate what a good veteran coaching staff is doing for the lack of talent they have. The fact we're even close to .500 with the injuries and complete lack of depth this team has should speak for the coaches...
.....told you so PB. I've fought this battle way too many times so I'm going to stay out of it. The only thing I will say is that this past offseason, Bleacher Report ranked Spielman the #1 GM in the NFL :D

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2089 ... erformance
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Re: Mark Craig: Defense grades well, Offense will need build

Post by Purple bruise »

sive coordinator benches for a guy signed off a practice squad?

Don't underestimate what a good veteran coaching staff is doing for the lack of talent they have. The fact we're even close to .500 with the injuries and complete lack of depth this team has should speak for the coaches...[/quote]

.....told you so PB. I've fought this battle way too many times so I'm going to stay out of it. The only thing I will say is that this past offseason, Bleacher Report ranked Spielman the #1 GM in the NFL :D

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2089 ... erformance[/quote]

Just consider the source and then take it with a grain of salt :lol:
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Re: Mark Craig: Defense grades well, Offense will need build

Post by Demi »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: .....told you so PB. I've fought this battle way too many times so I'm going to stay out of it. The only thing I will say is that this past offseason, Bleacher Report ranked Spielman the #1 GM in the NFL :D

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2089 ... erformance
Will the real Minnesota Vikings please stand up in 2014?

Are they the club that finished 10-6 two years ago and grabbed a wild-card berth? Or are they the team that stumbled out of the gate this past season and wound up a disappointing 5-10-1?
Hey, look, they're both!

A .500 a team that finally has competent coaching with some questionable talent/depth.

:confused:

Same people were defending Ponder/whoever was the coach for the last decade. What is the purpose? Is it possible to look at the situation and analyze it, or just make excuses for everything that is even a little questionable and push everything that is positive? :wallbang:
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Re: Mark Craig: Defense grades well, Offense will need build

Post by John_Viveiros »

I didn't want to start a new thread, so I picked one relating to the offense...

I was rewatching one of the 2014 games, and they mentioned the Vikes were the worst (at that point in the season) in points per drive. That's a pretty interesting stat, and fairly easy to calculate. I also had done the same calculations for the historically good 2009 and 1998 offenses. (*methodology below). I was interested in looking at the Vikings offense in the first half of the season vs. the second half, and that led on to other things.

From the last 15 years, I came up with an average of 2.0 points per drive for the Vikings. That doesn't include special teams or defensive TD's of course. The Vikings have averaged 11 meaningful drives per game since 1998, so the offenses generally produce about 22 points per game on average.

This year's opponents:

Code: Select all

Opponent	Drives	Points	Points/drive
Rams		10		27		2.70
Patriots	12		7		0.58
Saints	7		9		1.29
Falcons	11		40		3.64
Packers	13		10		0.77
Lions		12		3		0.25
Bills		12		16		1.33
Bucs		12		13		1.08
Redskins	11		28		2.55
Bears	9		13		1.44
Packers	9		20		2.22
Panthers	9		17		1.89
Jets		10		17		1.70
Lions		10		14		1.40
Dolphins	11		34		3.09
Bears	8		13		1.63
For the first 8 games of the 2015 season, the Vikes the Vikes averaged 1.40 points per drive. They had 6 games under 1.35 points per drive (the only successful games by this offensive standard were the Rams and Falcons games - maybe by any offensive standard).

In the last 8 games, no game was under 1.4 points per drive - every game in the second half of the season was better than the average game in the first half. That in itself seems to be a pretty significant change, an improvement we are all hoping that the Vikings build on in 2015.

For that second half of the season, the Vikes were a more normal 2.03 points per drive. (I don't particularly know why we had about 1.5 fewer drives per game in the last eight...) Anyway, this is a pretty normal performance, Vikings-wise. The Bears games were clearly disappointing. Their defense stunk last year. I give some credit to playing game 17 outdoors in the Minnesota winter, but still... The Lions game looks below average, but if they had made one of the three missed FG's, they would have won the game, and if they had made two, they would have been able to match their second half average points/drive.

Then I decided to compare to prior Vikings seasons (I listed the top passer, runner, and wide receiver for the year for reference):

Code: Select all

2014	 77	156	2.03	Bridgewater/Asiata/Johnson (second half season)
2013	187	365	1.95	Cassel/Peterson/Jennings
2012	171	343	2.01	Ponder/Peterson/Harvin
2011	180	332	1.84	Ponder/Peterson/Harvin
2010	177	261	1.47	Favre/Peterson/Harvin
2009	178	455	2.56	Favre/Peterson/Rice
2008	186	360	1.94	Frerotte/Peterson/Berrian
2007	185	298	1.61	Jackson/Peterson/Wade
2006	182	238	1.31	B. Johnson/C. Taylor/T. Taylor
2005	178	271	1.52	B. Johnson/M. Moore/T. Taylor
2004	151	383	2.54	Culpepper/O. Smith/Burleson
2003	171	383	2.24	Culpepper/Williams/Moss
2002	186	384	2.06	Culpepper/Bennett/Moss
2001	172	276	1.60	Culpepper/Bennett/Moss
2000	165	395	2.39	Culpepper/Smith/Moss
1999	181	372	2.06	George/Smith/Moss
1998	168	511	3.04	Cunningham/Smith/Moss
The best years were clearly NFC Championship game years - 1998/2000/2009 - plus 2004. But look at how so many Vikings seasons end up right near the 2.0 points/drive average. Compare Bridgewater/Asiata/Johnson with Jeff George/Robert Smith/Randy Moss, or Culpepper/Michael Bennett/Randy Moss, or Ponder/MVP Peterson/Harvin. Considering the state of the offensive line in the last half of 2014, how did rookie Bridgewater, replacement-value Asiata, and practice squad-er Johnson manage to do so well?

* I totalled the number of drives - 4th downs missed, punts, turnovers, running and passing TD's, and FG attempts. To simplify points, I ignored conversions - 7 points per TD and 3 per made FG. Divide, and you get the points/drive. The only thing that really messes up this stat is if your defense and special teams are really great (and you get the ball in the opponent's territory all the time) or really bad (and you always start drives inside your own 20 for example).
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Re: Mark Craig: Defense grades well, Offense will need build

Post by slapnut19 »

the last thing you want to do is what the jets and rex ryan did with a young mark sanchez. they took a promising young qb and built around him with high draft picks of defensive lineman and cbs. get the offense help up front to build a line to give him time, or get him an elite target that falls. another corner taken high in the draft does nothing for the future of the franchise.
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Re: Mark Craig: Defense grades well, Offense will need build

Post by Mothman »

John_Viveiros wrote:The best years were clearly NFC Championship game years - 1998/2000/2009 - plus 2004. But look at how so many Vikings seasons end up right near the 2.0 points/drive average. Compare Bridgewater/Asiata/Johnson with Jeff George/Robert Smith/Randy Moss, or Culpepper/Michael Bennett/Randy Moss, or Ponder/MVP Peterson/Harvin. Considering the state of the offensive line in the last half of 2014, how did rookie Bridgewater, replacement-value Asiata, and practice squad-er Johnson manage to do so well?
Honestly, it doesn't look like they did. In 5 of those final 8 games they averaged under 2 points per drive and the offense scored 17 points or less per game. That's not very good. It's clear their average was boosted by a few strong offensive performances but on a week-to-week basis, they still struggled to score more often than not.

Nevertheless, the work you put into compiling those stats is appreciated. They're interesting!
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Re: Mark Craig: Defense grades well, Offense will need build

Post by DK Sweets »

This post seems so interesting, but it's a mess on my phone (that's not a complaint about your post, it's a complaint about me not having a computer for a while). I read it, and I appreciate the work that went into it, but I can't really analyze much with you.
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Re: Mark Craig: Defense grades well, Offense will need build

Post by John_Viveiros »

Mothman wrote: Honestly, it doesn't look like they did. In 5 of those final 8 games they averaged under 2 points per drive and the offense scored 17 points or less per game. That's not very good. It's clear their average was boosted by a few strong offensive performances but on a week-to-week basis, they still struggled to score more often than not.

Nevertheless, the work you put into compiling those stats is appreciated. They're interesting!
The strange game is the panthers game. The offense essentially wasn't trying to put up points after the two blocked punts. At least, not to my recollection. When you're up by multiple touchdowns, you worry more about the clock than scoring TDs. Even so, it was right around average performance.

As I rewatch the season, I'll have to pay attention to those bears games. They are the ones where the offensive performance was well under what one would expect from going against such a poor defense.
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Re: Mark Craig: Defense grades well, Offense will need build

Post by Mothman »

John_Viveiros wrote:The strange game is the panthers game. The offense essentially wasn't trying to put up points after the two blocked punts. At least, not to my recollection. When you're up by multiple touchdowns, you worry more about the clock than scoring TDs. Even so, it was right around average performance.
I haven't seen that game since it aired but I think they actually scored a TD one or two possessions after the second blocked punt so i wouldn't say they stopped trying to score after that, although I do take your point that once they were up big, they may have become more conservative. i;d have to watch again to see if that was actually the case or if the panthers adjusted and played much better on defense in the second half. Maybe it was a bit of both...
As I rewatch the season, I'll have to pay attention to those bears games. They are the ones where the offensive performance was well under what one would expect from going against such a poor defense.
Indeed, and they're also a big part of why I'm not as sold on Bridgewater or the oft-discussed improvement of the offense during the latter half of the season. Admittedly, the Bears games are important to me since for me, that's always been the Vikes rivalry that mattered most. However, I watched the first of those two games in person and from the stands, Bridgewater's performance, and that of the offense, was every bit as lackluster as some of the bad performances I'd seen from Ponder and the Vikes at Soldier Field. It was VERY discouraging and when they didn't perform much more effectively at the end of the season, when the Bears were in absolute disarray, that really frustrated me. Despite the loss @ Miami, the offense's performance in that game, and the state of the Bears, led me to think the Vikes would do much better against Chicago the second time around.

Anyway, I look forward to your take on those Bears games. :)
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Re: Mark Craig: Defense grades well, Offense will need build

Post by jackal »

I'm sure with Peterson or whatever comes next, our offense would have been much more effective ...

That's actually what impressed the most with Zimmer's staff .. even after the injury bug feasted on the Vikings
seemed to play pretty well and guys stepped up, to fill roles.
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Re: Mark Craig: Defense grades well, Offense will need build

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jackal wrote:I'm sure with Peterson or whatever comes next, our offense would have been much more effective ...

That's actually what impressed the most with Zimmer's staff .. even after the injury bug feasted on the Vikings
seemed to play pretty well and guys stepped up, to fill roles.
Someone usually does but I didn't feel that happened to a particularly impressive or extraordinary extent last year. I imagine Peterson's presence would have made a difference but unfortunately, his days with the Vikings may be done.
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Re: Mark Craig: Defense grades well, Offense will need build

Post by fiestavike »

Mothman wrote: Someone usually does but I didn't feel that happened to a particularly impressive or extraordinary extent last year. I imagine Peterson's presence would have made a difference but unfortunately, his days with the Vikings may be done.
I would rather have a great offensive line than a great running back, and I think the line was the #1 problem last year. Teddy did a good job adapting, especially as a rookie, but it was all quick reads and get the ball out fast. A line that could run block and pass protect like a top 15 nfl team would make the offense look a LOT better.
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