Charles Johnson

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Re: Charles Johnson

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Pondering Her Percy wrote: I agree jackal and honestly, I've never understood why that is
And who's to tell them how they should enjoy football? ;)

I don't think it's a 'Vikings fans' thing, I think it's a human thing. People like being right. Mostly people who seem to harp on the Vikings failures are those who thought from the beginning of the year the team would be horrible and so they grasp onto every negative thing to prove that point.

At the same time, the team has played pretty lousy for most of the season, so there's also the possibility that there are just a lot more things to point out about the team that are negative.
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Re: Charles Johnson

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808vikingsfan wrote: Yet some still swear it was a horrible pass.
I'll repeat what I just posted in the game thread:

Image

Johnson is stumbling out of his break and the ball is coming in high. The throw would be behind him if he had kept running. The Detroit defender trailing Johnson is in better position to get the ball and is, in fact, leaping to try and tip it. That's a bad throw.
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Re: Charles Johnson

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

Mothman wrote: I'll repeat what I just posted in the game thread:

Image

Johnson is stumbling out of his break and the ball is coming in high. The throw would be behind him if he had kept running. The Detroit defender trailing Johnson is in better position to get the ball and is, in fact, leaping to try and tip it. That's a bad throw.
And I'll repeat that the screenshot shows me nothing. The nose of the ball in point in front of him and the ball obviously looks like it's coming in high because Johnson is bent over basically touching his toes. Also, the screenshot is angled to the right and not straight on which also does nothing to help the argument. As for the defender, he's literally laying out for it and still didn't get a hand on it so no he's not really in a position to get the ball. By him getting tripped up, it makes his momentum to fly forward. If he was standing straight up this wouldn't even be argued
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Re: Charles Johnson

Post by DK Sweets »

I've got to say, that screenshot actually confirms to me that the pass wasn't a bad pass. Could it have been lower? Sure. But if Johnson is standing up, that's in his reach. Worst case scenario is the ball is incomplete.

I don't see how you can tell where he was going on the route when he tripped on his break, so in my opinion it makes more sense to assume that Teddy was expecting Johnson to stop there than assume Teddy threw the ball 5 yards off the mark.
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Re: Charles Johnson

Post by dead_poet »

DKSweets wrote:I've got to say, that screenshot actually confirms to me that the pass wasn't a bad pass. Could it have been lower? Sure. But if Johnson is standing up, that's in his reach. Worst case scenario is the ball is incomplete.

I don't see how you can tell where he was going on the route when he tripped on his break, so in my opinion it makes more sense to assume that Teddy was expecting Johnson to stop there than assume Teddy threw the ball 5 yards off the mark.
That's what I see, too, especially given the QB-view posted on the other thread. .
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Re: Charles Johnson

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DKSweets wrote:I've got to say, that screenshot actually confirms to me that the pass wasn't a bad pass.
That begs the question: what do you consider a good pass? If the receiver has to slow his route immediately out of his break and leap up for the ball with a defender right on him, is that a well-placed throw? In my opinion, "Catchable if the receiver makes a great play" does not = a good pass... and I'm not convinced it was even catchable.
Could it have been lower? Sure. But if Johnson is standing up, that's in his reach. Worst case scenario is the ball is incomplete.
I don't see how you can tell where he was going on the route when he tripped on his break...
Easy. He took the route straight up the field and broke hard, horizontally, to the outside. He stumbled in the direction he was taking the route out of the break and since the ball was on it's way to him, the intent of the route is clear. It was a down and out and Teddy was trying to hit him shortly out of his break.
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Re: Charles Johnson

Post by frosted »

Mothman wrote:Easy. He took the route straight up the field and broke hard, horizontally, to the outside. He stumbled in the direction he was taking the route out of the break and since the ball was on it's way to him, the intent of the route is clear. It was a down and out and Teddy was trying to hit him shortly out of his break.
If he was running an out, then that was the worst pass of all time..
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Re: Charles Johnson

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frosted wrote: If he was running an out, then that was the worst pass of all time..
As I've been saying: it was a bad pass.
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Re: Charles Johnson

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

Mothman wrote: As I've been saying: it was a bad pass.
He's saying IF it was an out which nobody knows....I mean you're entitled to your own opinion but it defintely seems like you're in the minority here no matter how many times you say "it was a bad pass".
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Re: Charles Johnson

Post by Mothman »

Pondering Her Percy wrote:He's saying IF it was an out which nobody knows....I mean you're entitled to your own opinion but it defintely seems like you're in the minority here no matter how many times you say "it was a bad pass".
Of course I'm in the minority. I'm being critical of a pass thrown by Teddy Bridgewater.

Look, it's obvious that Johnson was running an out route. I'm not sure why that's even in question. He takes his route about 10-12 yards straight up the field vertically then makes a hard horizontal cut. That's an out route. A comeback isn't run that way. It's all on tape and it's evident in the screen shots. If that wasn't an out route then what was it? Teddy even threw it like it was an out route. He just threw it poorly.

Regardless of the route, how can a pass that high, on whatever route you care to say Johnson was running, be considered a good throw? You're taking me to task for calling it a bad pass. Can someone explain why it was a good pass?
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Re: Charles Johnson

Post by dead_poet »

Mothman wrote: Of course I'm in the minority. I'm being critical of a pass thrown by Teddy Bridgewater.

Look, it's obvious that Johnson was running an out route. I'm not sure why that's even in question. He takes his route about 10-12 yards straight up the field vertically then makes a hard horizontal cut. That's an out route. A comeback isn't run that way. It's all on tape and it's evident in the screen shots. If that wasn't an out route then what was it? Teddy even threw it like it was an out route. He just threw it poorly.

Regardless of the route, how can a pass that high, on whatever route you care to say Johnson was running, be considered a good throw? You're taking me to task for calling it a bad pass. Can someone explain why it was a good pass?
I think we're past "good" pass and are on "catchable" pass.
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Re: Charles Johnson

Post by DK Sweets »

You CAN'T be positive of which route was called unless you're on the coaching staff, Jim. Isn't that why you don't like PFF?

You say that the route isn't ran that way, but to me it looks like he's trying to curl the route back towards Bridgewater. I've seen Percy Harvin, among others, run routes this way. Furthermore, he's a young player so it's very possible that he didn't run the route perfectly because he was trying to shake the defender at the top of his break. Just because it wasn't ran technically perfect doesn't mean that an outside curl is out of the question.

Nobody can answer your question on why it is a good pass, but you're setting up a question that only you can win. Nobody here thinks it was a good pass. Then again, very few of us think it was bad, either. It was just a pass where Bridgewater tried to give his receiver an opportunity - it is only viewed as good or bad based on the outcome. It was not an awesome pass, nor would anybody have viewed it as terrible if Johnson had kept his feet. The pass in a vacuum is average, it is only perceived differently due to circumstances.
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Re: Charles Johnson

Post by Mothman »

dead_poet wrote:I think we're past "good" pass and are on "catchable" pass.
Agreed. :)

DKSweets wrote:You CAN'T be positive of which route was called unless you're on the coaching staff, Jim. Isn't that why you don't like PFF?
Touché. :) However, just to be clear, I'm not saying I'm positive which route was called, I'm just saying I can see what kind of route was run.
You say that the route isn't ran that way, but to me it looks like he's trying to curl the route back towards Bridgewater. I've seen Percy Harvin, among others, run routes this way. Furthermore, he's a young player so it's very possible that he didn't run the route perfectly because he was trying to shake the defender at the top of his break. Just because it wasn't ran technically perfect doesn't mean that an outside curl is out of the question.
I doubt it was an outside curl because Bridgewater doesn't give the route time to curl back before releasing the ball. If I recall correctly, he said it was supposed to be a "bang bang" play. He threw it like he was supposed to hit Johnson coming out of his break, not like he was supposed to wait for him to curl back into the flat. However, for the sake of argument, let's say I'm wrong and it was an outside curl not a down and out. That's a similar route so it's possible but how would it in any way make the throw look better? If anything, wouldn't that make it worse because the pass is still high and it's even further inside where a curl route would take Johnson.
Nobody can answer your question on why it is a good pass, but you're setting up a question that only you can win. Nobody here thinks it was a good pass. Then again, very few of us think it was bad, either. It was just a pass where Bridgewater tried to give his receiver an opportunity - it is only viewed as good or bad based on the outcome. It was not an awesome pass, nor would anybody have viewed it as terrible if Johnson had kept his feet. The pass in a vacuum is average, it is only perceived differently due to circumstances.
I just don't see how it's even an average pass. I just pointed out in the game thread that you can see from the screenshots and highlights that the pass is about 7 feet high (if not higher) when it is over Johnson and the covering defender. Whatever the route, that's far from where the ball should have been placed. I think he sailed it and that's the main reason it was picked off.
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Re: Charles Johnson

Post by DK Sweets »

In the original shot you posted, it is a little over the defenders out reached arms, and he is sideways and barely off the ground. I have to believe CJ has a better vertical than to miss that pass.
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Re: Charles Johnson

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

Mothman wrote: Of course I'm in the minority. I'm being critical of a pass thrown by Teddy Bridgewater.

Look, it's obvious that Johnson was running an out route. I'm not sure why that's even in question. He takes his route about 10-12 yards straight up the field vertically then makes a hard horizontal cut. That's an out route. A comeback isn't run that way. It's all on tape and it's evident in the screen shots. If that wasn't an out route then what was it? Teddy even threw it like it was an out route. He just threw it poorly.

Regardless of the route, how can a pass that high, on whatever route you care to say Johnson was running, be considered a good throw? You're taking me to task for calling it a bad pass. Can someone explain why it was a good pass?
I've already said that Johnson was putting his hands up in front of him to catch it, the ball is righ out in front of him according to the shots and Johnson is a big WR with a big wing span. Johnson himself said it was a catchable ball. I think he would know before anyone else. Not sure what else I have to say. If it was so "obvious" that it was a bad throw then you wouldn't be in the minority. Unless you're saying we're all clueless :wink:
Last edited by Pondering Her Percy on Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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