Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Week 15

[mmvikes]

Dead_poet, this is the best I can do without the coach's film. It's from the two broadcast replays of the play. I post it somewhat reluctantly because I've found that these still shots end up being more like Rorscach tests here on the board but I'll post them anyway and leave everybody to draw their own conclusions.

The first sequence is from the isolation replay. It starts just as Johnson is entering his break. In the second frame, he's beginning to stumble and the DET LB is beginning to react to the ball. I suspect they're both reacting and Johnson is stumbling because he's realizing the ball isn't on the same trajectory as his route and he he's realizing he needs to pull up. From there, you see Johnson continuing to stumble. the Lions player gets his hand relatively close to the pass. You can see from where the ball is over the course of the sequence that there's no way that was going to hit Johnson anywhere near the numbers if he had made a clean break and continued his route to the outside.

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The second sequence is from an endzone angle but doesn't show the whole field.

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One thing it shows is that there was clearly contacy beyond 5 yarxs while the ball was on its way. He was draped over CJs back. They will not call the feet getting tangled though. Whether he could catch it on a clean route, I don't know.

[frosted]

It's not available until tomorrow.

I must have special permissions, I have access to the coaches film already..

[Mothman]

Charles Johnson is a 6'2 WR with a gigantic wing span and you show a screenshot that is angled to the right and has Johnson bending over? That shows me nothing. Look at the nose of the ball, it's pointing in front of Johnson. Actually listen to Johnsons interview. He specifically said, "oh yeah I would have had no problem catching it". Then someone asked him if it was high and he said it wasn't at all. I think Johnson can see what happens on the field a little better than any of us do so yeah, you should consider what he was saying. That screenshot shows me nothing.

Honestly, you don't seem particularly interested in seeing anything in it. The picture shows the trajectory of the ball and it's spatial relationship to the players. It's coming in close to the defender's hand and since he's behind Johnson, it should be evident the pass was both high and poorly placed. Johnson would have had to practically leap and stretch as he came out of his break to make that catch. Continue making excuses if you must but it simply wasn't thrown well.

I understand he has 10 ints but my point is, some are criticizing him for his ints like he throws them non stop when in all reality, only 6 of them were actually bad throws and I believe you wouldnt be saying "his INTs" if that stat sheet said 6 instead of 10. By no means am I saying he never has bad throws because he definitely has just like all QBs do. However, I'm not going to sit here and continue to point out his 10 ints when really, 6 were on him and we actually bad throws.

I repeat: you asked me to point out what I didn't like about his game. I don't like the interceptions. Do you actually like them? If not, then we agree and what the heck is your point? For crying out loud, I didn't say "he throws too many interceptions" or something similar. I said I don't like them. You asked me to be critical and now you're taking me to task for being critical and making comments about how "some" are criticizing Bridgewater "for his ints like he throws them non stop". Nobody is doing that.

[mmvikes]

Teddy had a few high throws after the 2 picks that the receivers bailed him out on. Then he seemed to settle down again. Good to see he didn't go into a game long funk after that. Every QB will have bad passes and bad games. Even the best of them. As a rookie I am surprised how well he is progressing. The future does look bright.

[frosted]

Enjoy!

[dead_poet]

I'll wait until tomorrow's shots before rendering my final opinion. Right now with the contact and stumbling it's just really hard to make a definitive call one way or the other. My gut is telling me that had he not stumbled/been mugged and kept going along the route then it would've been an even worse ball BUT that's also assuming Johnson was to continue the route (I'm still not convinced he was). In fact, if he truly was, he'd have about two to three more steps to the sidelines and, what, 9-12 feet further that direction. That would then constitute probably the most inaccurate ball I've ever seen Teddy throw. I understand that some throws just "get away from you" but his release and mechanics look fine from what I can see. I'm starting to convince myself that Charles was supposed to sit right near there. I could be wrong.

Given the placement of the ball from the clean pocket, I'm inclined to think that had he not slipped, CJ could've had a legitimate chance at catching it, even if it may have not been placed in the premiere location (wherever that was supposed to be).

[Mothman]

No fair, Frosted. Why do I have to wait?

I'm going to rest my case and let the pics you posted clearly illustrate what I've been saying. However, as I mentioned, these things tend to end up being a Rorschach test here so I doubt they'll resolve anything. It's just not the same as seeing the play in motion.

I will add that watching the play in motion, it really doesn't look to me like the Detroit player commits a penalty at all. YMMV.

[dead_poet]

Enjoy!

OK, from that angle it doesn't look like that inaccurate of a throw, though it does look like CJ has to slow up a bit. I think had he not lost his footing he could've had good position to real in a leaping grab. I mean, just looking at him there and if he was standing up and raising his arms I think he comes close. A big jump isn't needed from what I can tell.

[DK Sweets]

Everybody is entitled to their opinion, and there's no way of knowing who's right. But to me, that looks like Johnson stumbled on a curl route and the defender draped him. The pass was high, but not egregiously so.

EDIT: Thanks for the cutups, guys.

[Mothman]

I'll wait until tomorrow's shots before rendering my final opinion. Right now with the contact and stumbling it's just really hard to make a definitive call one way or the other. My gut is telling me that had he not stumbled/been mugged and kept going along the route then it would've been an even worse ball BUT that's also assuming Johnson was to continue the route (I'm still not convinced he was). In fact, if he truly was, he'd have about two to three more steps to the sidelines and, what, 9-12 feet further that direction. That would then constitute probably the most inaccurate ball I've ever seen Teddy throw. I understand that some throws just "get away from you" but his release and mechanics look fine from what I can see. I'm starting to convince myself that Charles was supposed to sit right near there. I could be wrong.

He didn't run the route like he was supposed to sit. He breaks it going upfield and turns toward the sidelines, not back to the QB. If it was supposed to be a comeback route, it shouldn't have been thrown at all because he was covered.

[dead_poet]

He didn't run the route like he was supposed to sit. He breaks it going upfield and turns toward the sidelines, not back to the QB. If it was supposed to be a comeback route, it shouldn't have been thrown at all because he was covered.

I don't mean to be argumentative. I just think it's really impossible to tell what route he was supposed to run given the contact/stumbling. If it's a comeback, he has pretty good position because he is/was "in front" of the defender and "boxing him out" (at least until he dropped his hands to catch himself). It may not matter but who's defending him and does CJ have a distinct height advantage in that situation?

I'll say if he's supposed to be running full out to the sidelines and that's the spot Teddy decided to throw it than it's not just a bad throw, it's one of the worst of his professional career. Definitely possible. I think we can all agree it's not an accurate throw (should've at least been in front of CJ), so now we're just arguing how bad it was and if it was catchable or not.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Honestly, you don't seem particularly interested in seeing anything in it. The picture shows the trajectory of the ball and it's spatial relationship to the players. It's coming in close to the defender's hand and since he's behind Johnson, it should be evident the pass was both high and poorly placed. Johnson would have had to practically leap and stretch as he came out of his break to make that catch. Continue making excuses if you must but it simply wasn't thrown well.

Interested in seeing anything in it?? I see what I see and just like others have said in the Johnson thread as well, they don't believe it was necessarily a bad throw. Right now, somehow you do. What I said weren't excuses by any means.....I pointed out what the shots showed. What I am questioning is how do you not see that. He's putting his hands up in front of him and the ball was place in front of him. Johnson is a big WR with a big wing span. It wasn't a bad throw. I have to head out though so I will assess the rest of the comment later

[frosted]

I watched it a few times this morning. The throw was a little high - it wasn't a TERRIBLE pass, IMO, but could have been slightly better. That said, I think Bridgewater was trying to put the ball in a spot where Charles could go up and get it. The defender playing Charles leaped over him and nearly tipped the pass as Johnson was doubled over, for lack of a better word. With the position Charles was in, I think he would have had a legitimate shot at catching the ball, had he not stumbled/been jostled off his spot. I think the route was:



Conclusion: IMO, Ted threw the pass a bit inaccurately, but Charles would have probably caught the ball (at least had a chance to catch the ball), had he not slipped/stumbled/been jostled off his spot.

Truth be told, does it really matter?

Other than to stroke some message board egos of course.

[frosted]

He didn't run the route like he was supposed to sit. He breaks it going upfield and turns toward the sidelines, not back to the QB. If it was supposed to be a comeback route, it shouldn't have been thrown at all because he was covered.

He breaks it towards the sideline and back toward Teddy, IMO.

[VikingLord]

I don't know if the ball was thrown well (I don't think it was, but I might consider it a better ball depending on what route Johnson was supposed to run), but the things that DO stand out to me are:

- Johnson was never open. The ball should never have been thrown to him.
- Bridgewater's feet are set well. Mechanics look good. No other players near him. He has a clear line of sight to his intended target. There is no excuse for an inaccurate pass on this play.
- Bridgewater has a pretty good pocket. Looks like he might have forced the pass earlier than he had to.

From what I can see, this is a timing play where Bridgewater intends to look off the coverage (he's looking more down the field after the snap), and either Bridgewater threw it to the wrong spot or Johnson ran the route wrong. Ideallly, this ball never comes out because regardless of the play's design Johnson is not open. But if the ball does come out, it has to be spot on and both the receiver and the QB need to hit the same spot at the same moment.