This Week's Enemy Fan Forums: The Carolina Panthers

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J. Kapp 11
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Re: This Week's Enemy Fan Forums: The Carolina Panthers

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

saint33 wrote: First of all, I believe Demi was referring to the RG3 trade that netted the Rams a boatload of picks over a few years, not actually drafted RG3 himself. I think anyone in their right mind would have to be crazy to suggest that winning that meaningless game in Washington and drafting Kalil was as beneficial as losing that game would have been with the package of draft picks we could/would have gotten in return for the 2nd overall pick.
It doesn't make any difference what Demi was referring to. Nobody lost on purpose. Nobody in the Rams front office said, "Yes! Our crappy record gets us more draft picks!"

And I just love the Monday morning quarterbacking. Two years ago, when Matt Kalil was suiting up for the Pro Bowl, nobody was thinking, "I wish we wouldn't have drafted this bum." It's really easy to say I told you so now. Two years ago, we appeared to be set at LT for the next decade.
saint33 wrote:Anyways my personal opinion on "tanking" is that it's really just a stupid fan driven discussion, because no NFL team would ever truly consider tanking for a draft pick. And some of your points may be brought up for reasons why a team wouldn't do so, but ultimately it's because the players and coaches whom would have to do the tanking would likely lose their jobs in doing so, so even if it were good for the franchise, it would not benefit the people who actually have control over the situation.
I'm pretty sure I said that.

Look, most guys on an NFL roster don't have guaranteed spots for the next season. They're playing to stay on the team. So they're not going to play at less than full speed. Also, they're far more susceptible to injury if they're loafing. Add in the reasons you mention, and it's just not going to happen.

From a fan perspective, I'm a realist. If New England, Green Bay, Denver, et. al., can win from the bottom of the draft, so can we.
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Re: This Week's Enemy Fan Forums: The Carolina Panthers

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

Mothman wrote: However, they were devastated by injuries that season.
My biggest question is, if this applies to the Colts that year, why doesn't it apply to us??? Not saying you're specifically saying that Jim. I'm just directing this towards the posters that dismissed this fact when I've posted it millions of times. We are devastated by injuries (on one side of the ball no less) and lose our best player/face of the franchise. Then others sit there and say we have no depth. So the Colts had no depth either then?? Maybe even worse depth than we have?? Only trying to be fair here. Bottom line is there isn't a team out there that could overcome that. Yet we still managed 4 wins so far and can definitely rack up a few more before seasons end.
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Re: This Week's Enemy Fan Forums: The Carolina Panthers

Post by chicagopurple »

before taking such a drastic and weasily step as tanking, I would want TOTAL confidence that we had position coaches throughout our staff who are capable of developing talent. At this point I have Zero confidence that that is true. Tanking and getting a bunch of high picks will mean nothing if you cant develop the talent you get. Moreover, Viking fans have suffered enough, it would be insane to make season ticket holders sit through intentional losses.......
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Re: This Week's Enemy Fan Forums: The Carolina Panthers

Post by Purple Reign »

I don't think any team would tank on purpose (or admit to it), but I also think they may do so indirectly. By that, I mean that a coach may not put his best players in the lineup that give his team the best chance at winning at the end of a lost season. It makes it easier for a coach to say, hey, this season is lost so I want to give my backup players more experience or that he doesn't want to risk injury to his star players, especially if they already have some sort of injury (and almost everyone is playing with some type of injury at the end of the season). So they can still say they are trying to win, but can justify not starting their best players rather than admit they are tanking for a better draft pick.
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Re: This Week's Enemy Fan Forums: The Carolina Panthers

Post by saint33 »

let me just clarify that when I refer to "tanking" (the quotations are there intentionally) I'm not referring to a team literally losing on purpose for a draft pick. As I explained, it's not something any team would even consider as their jobs are on the line, so it doesn't really need to be discussed, as it's something that would not happen in real life.

However, when I refer to "tanking" I'm simply referring to a mindset as a fan that it's better to lose out once we are realistically eliminated from playoff contention and we have a chance for a higher draft pick and potentially franchise changing player. I think we can all agree that a team would and should not lose intentionally, I'm simply saying that as a fan of the team, I see more value in the team losing games once their eliminated to get a better draft pick as apposed to winning meaningless games that don't really accomplish anything in the grand scheme of things.
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Re: This Week's Enemy Fan Forums: The Carolina Panthers

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

saint33 wrote:let me just clarify that when I refer to "tanking" (the quotations are there intentionally) I'm not referring to a team literally losing on purpose for a draft pick. As I explained, it's not something any team would even consider as their jobs are on the line, so it doesn't really need to be discussed, as it's something that would not happen in real life.

However, when I refer to "tanking" I'm simply referring to a mindset as a fan that it's better to lose out once we are realistically eliminated from playoff contention and we have a chance for a higher draft pick and potentially franchise changing player. I think we can all agree that a team would and should not lose intentionally, I'm simply saying that as a fan of the team, I see more value in the team losing games once their eliminated to get a better draft pick as apposed to winning meaningless games that don't really accomplish anything in the grand scheme of things.
I can't speak for others, but I know what I think.

Your premise that winning "meaningless" games accomplishes nothing in the grand scheme of things ... well, it would be impossible for me to disagree more than I do. There is tremendous value in teaching one of the youngest rosters in the league how to win games. After being 3 games below .500 multiple times during this year, If the Vikings could win 4 of their last 5 and get their record to 8-8, it would give them an entirely different mindset going into next season. It would instill a sense of confidence ... both in themselves and in the coaching staff.

Winning is contagious, while losing is a disease that's not easily cured ... especially by rookies.
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Re: This Week's Enemy Fan Forums: The Carolina Panthers

Post by Demi »

If the Vikings could win 4 of their last 5 and get their record to 8-8, it would give them an entirely different mindset going into next season.
I find it difficult to believe any of the players will come into training camp next year caring one way or the other what the teams record was. Making the playoffs might matter. Winning the super bowl would matter. Finishing the season .500 and missing the playoffs? Ask the Cowboys how mindset helps. They did it for four years and might end up doing it again, in an even worse way. These are human beings doing a job. By the time the offseason is over they're just ready to play football again, they don't get any boost because they won a few games to finish off the previous season. And there's no way it extends any length of time into the season. Just look at hundreds of examples of teams that are doing exactly what you're claiming carries over...and then nose dive the next year.
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Re: This Week's Enemy Fan Forums: The Carolina Panthers

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

Demi wrote: I find it difficult to believe any of the players will come into training camp next year caring one way or the other what the teams record was. Making the playoffs might matter. Winning the super bowl would matter. Finishing the season .500 and missing the playoffs? Ask the Cowboys how mindset helps. They did it for four years and might end up doing it again, in an even worse way. These are human beings doing a job. By the time the offseason is over they're just ready to play football again, they don't get any boost because they won a few games to finish off the previous season. And there's no way it extends any length of time into the season. Just look at hundreds of examples of teams that are doing exactly what you're claiming carries over...and then nose dive the next year.
So, you claim "hundreds of examples," then fail to provide even one.

No, the Dallas Cowboys don't qualify. In fact, they're the polar opposite of what I described. New coach? Nope. Young roster learning how to win? Hardly. Play well at the end of one season leading to good play in the next? Nope -- they collapse every December.

But guess what? I give you Miami. Look at 2013. First-time coach? Check. Young roster? Check. Strong play to finish a season? Check -- won three of their last five last year to finish 8-8, including wins over Pittsburgh on the road and New England at home. And whatdya know? They're playing their butts off this year, getting better every week, and contending for a Wild Card spot.
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Re: This Week's Enemy Fan Forums: The Carolina Panthers

Post by PurpleMustReign »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: So, you claim "hundreds of examples," then fail to provide even one.

No, the Dallas Cowboys don't qualify. In fact, they're the polar opposite of what I described. New coach? Nope. Young roster learning how to win? Hardly. Play well at the end of one season leading to good play in the next? Nope -- they collapse every December.

But guess what? I give you Miami. Look at 2013. First-time coach? Check. Young roster? Check. Strong play to finish a season? Check -- won three of their last five last year to finish 8-8, including wins over Pittsburgh on the road and New England at home. And whatdya know? They're playing their butts off this year, getting better every week, and contending for a Wild Card spot.
In fact Miami nearly made the post season last year.


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Re: This Week's Enemy Fan Forums: The Carolina Panthers

Post by Demi »

So, you claim "hundreds of examples," then fail to provide even one.
But guess what? I give you Miami.
Nick Saban was hired. They went 9-7, won their last six games. Next season lost 6 of their first 7 and Saban was gone.

2008 They hired Tony Sparano. Went 11-5. Won their last 5 regular season games. Lost in playoffs to Ravens. Lost their first three games the following season and went below .500 the next three years.

Both coaches hired before Philbin finished their first season strong, and started their second not so strong. There are a bunch of examples. Chiefs with Cunningham. On and on throughout the history of the league. One season rarely translates in one way or the other to the next.
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Re: This Week's Enemy Fan Forums: The Carolina Panthers

Post by saint33 »

First of all Philbin wasn't a first year head coach in 2013.

And I'm with Demi on this one.

Hell just look at 2011. Vikings with a young team and 2nd year coach win 4 straight to finish off the season, including impressive victories over the Texans and Packers and actually propel themselves into a playoff spot. Last year we start off the season 1-7

I think it's a nice storyline for fans and the media to preach when a team gets hot at the end of one season and then plays well the next year. But the team changes from year to year, players mature more, new players are added, key players who may have been hurt the year before return.... etc. etc. In numerous interviews this year with Harrison Smith, the media brought up last year and tried to correlate it to this year, and every time Harrison's answer was the same "this year is not last year. Every year is a fresh start and you can't compare seasons".


Anyways, if the team can go on a 4-5 game winning streak this year, I'm not going to complain. It'd be a great sign that team is truly starting to live up to it's talent level, because this team does have talent. However winning 4-5 games to end out the season is a lot different than winning one or two games against weak opponents, which is more of what I was referring to.
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Re: This Week's Enemy Fan Forums: The Carolina Panthers

Post by 808vikingsfan »

Zimmer answers the question about playing for next year

Postgame Locker Room After The Panthers Win
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Re: This Week's Enemy Fan Forums: The Carolina Panthers

Post by Mothman »

808vikingsfan wrote:Zimmer answers the question about playing for next year

Postgame Locker Room After The Panthers Win
I love this coach.
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