The Wilfs

[Demi]

Ok so our GM is just fine. The lack of talent is on WHO? The veteran coaches? What about before that? My goodness. We've been under .500 for the better part of five seasons after this one. And now we have a new coach and same issues. Talent gaps all over the place. We don't even have players who can hold their own. Safeties that get run over EVERY game. Same mistakes in the draft. And a new coach buys Spielman more time? The guy failed in Miami miserably. And now three years in this team is a bottom 5 wreck. Do you honestly believe this guy can give Zimmer the guys he needs to succeed?

[Mothman]

So your saying GM's value is overstated? Why have them? Or whats your point with the Ravens? You need good team management, from the top down. That's how teams are good, year after year. So your happy with Ricks job? Or think he has the wrong coaching staff? I hope the Wilf's think more logically, before we waste another 3 years and have to clean house, when maybe replacing 1 person in management might be more. practical.

Ok so our GM is just fine. The lack of talent is on WHO? The veteran coaches? What about before that? My goodness. We've been under .500 for the better part of five seasons after this one. And now we have a new coach and same issues. Talent gaps all over the place. We don't even have players who can hold their own. Safeties that get run over EVERY game. Same mistakes in the draft. And a new coach buys Spielman more time? The guy failed in Miami miserably. And now three years in this team is a bottom 5 wreck. Do you honestly believe this guy can give Zimmer the guys he needs to succeed?

I honestly don't know. I don't think the team is a "wreck" just because they're 4-6. They have a new coach and some of the same issues they had before but did either of you really think those issues would magically disappear in less than a season under a new staff? Once a team is bad, improving it into a winner is a process. It takes time.

I'm definitely not 100% happy with the job Spielman has done so far and I'm not entirely unhappy with it either. It's been a mixed bag and an odd situation. If his harsher critics got their wish and the Vikes replaced him, my biggest problem with that decision would be that they would be saddling a new GM with a coach he didn't choose and/or potentially pulling the rug out from under Zimmer. However, beyond that, I'm not against replacing Spielman because I'm not sold on him as the GM. I'm not blaming him for all the team's woes either, especially because I'm not convinced he's ever really been in a position to completely fix them until now.

This thread started off about the Wilfs. If Spielman is the problem, if he can't give Zimmer the players he needs to succeed, then it's also worth asking when Spielman was put in position to succeed. Was it in 2007? 2011? 2012? 2014 (when he was able to hire Zimmer)?

I just want those of you who are railing against Spielman, particularly you (Demi) and PurpleKoolAid, to answer a couple of basic questions about the GM position: how much time and control should a GM get to have a fair shot at building a winner? How much of each is enough to do the job successfully? How many mistakes are they allowed (because no matter who gets the job, they're going to make some)?

[VikingPaul73]

Suppose Seahawks got a ring just lucking on a QB?
Every other team is just lucky. We're doing everything right but just not working out. Not lucky? Always an excuse here or there. Biggest problem? Owners more interested in money than anything else.

Exactly, Why even have a GM since everything is based on luck? Maybe the Wilf's should just purchase a machine that randomly picks players, maybe then we could get lucky and have an elite QB fall into our lap!

[Pondering Her Percy]

Same mistakes in the draft.

What "mistakes" are we talking about here? In years we have had 7 first round picks and I guess you could say only one is truly starting to fail (Kalil). As for Patterson, he hasn't developed as a traditional WR yet, which will take some time in his instance, but can still be a valuable piece of this offense as he develops. Outside of that, the rest have all filled big holes that we had and showed success at those positions.

[chicagopurple]

How could an owner or GM predict that landing the BEST RB in the game would be a "bad choice" because he was a closet child abuser??? I am not dedicated to Spielman at all, but I cannot blame him for this current mess. He has been an OK guy at the draft. The LONG term contract was not too bright because RBs have a short shelf life. The Wilf have spent money very generously at the request of the GM and we ARE finally getting a good stadium. The fact that public money is paying fora good chink of it is GOOD as it leaves ownership more solvent to pay salaries ON THE FIELD. The real problem in my eyes is that we need excellent coaching that can USE the talent they are given. The Pats, The PACK draft players the KEEP them and make them into dangerous talent. There is a reason that the Pack only has 5 players gained thru free agency (and we have like 30)....their coaches make their players better.....our havent done that in forever......

[maembe]

How could an owner or GM predict that landing the BEST RB in the game would be a "bad choice" because he was a closet child abuser??? I am not dedicated to Spielman at all, but I cannot blame him for this current mess. He has been an OK guy at the draft. The LONG term contract was not too bright because RBs have a short shelf life. The Wilf have spent money very generously at the request of the GM and we ARE finally getting a good stadium. The fact that public money is paying fora good chink of it is GOOD as it leaves ownership more solvent to pay salaries ON THE FIELD. The real problem in my eyes is that we need excellent coaching that can USE the talent they are given. The Pats, The PACK draft players the KEEP them and make them into dangerous talent. There is a reason that the Pack only has 5 players gained thru free agency (and we have like 30)....their coaches make their players better.....our havent done that in forever......

Did you watch the Packers last year without Rodgers? The reality is that they don't have more talent than us, they just happen to have one of the best QBs ever to play the game. Do you want me to list all of the Packers recent draft picks like I did the Ravens, because the Packers are probably even worse.

[Cliff]

Did you watch the Packers last year without Rodgers? The reality is that they don't have more talent than us, they just happen to have one of the best QBs ever to play the game. Do you want me to list all of the Packers recent draft picks like I did the Ravens, because the Packers are probably even worse.

The reality is they don't have more talent than us without Rodgers ... but they do have Rodgers so I don't understand the point. Not only do they have him, they had the foresight to draft him with Favre still on the roster.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Did you watch the Packers last year without Rodgers? The reality is that they don't have more talent than us, they just happen to have one of the best QBs ever to play the game. Do you want me to list all of the Packers recent draft picks like I did the Ravens, because the Packers are probably even worse.

I agree. I already looked at GBs as well. Their first round picks in 2012 and 2013 were Nick Perry and Datone Jones who are both pretty terrible. As I have said many times, there isn't a team in the NFL that could overcome the hit that we took on offense this year. I could care less who their GM is. If you do that to any other team, there offensive struggles are just as bad as ours. GB proved that last year and they really only lost Rodgers. Take away Lacy and their best offensive lineman too.....see ya later.

[chicagopurple]

I think people tend to ignore the coaching staffs effect. Not just the head coach but all the underlings who get the most out of their players. The Pack and Pats generally run like a well oiled machine. The play calling is effective and quick, the clock management is smart as is the challenges. Back-Ups come in ready to play and knowing the schemes...these are things that great organizations do......Someday I want the Vikes to be one of THOSE teams.

[Purple Reign]

People on here want the Wilfs to fire Spielman and hire a different GM. But they also say that the Wilfs don't know anything about football, so what makes them think the Wilfs can find a better GM? Other than trying to hire a GM away from another team, how do you know who would make a good GM that is capable of properly evaluating college talent? It's not like there is a minor league system for GM's to get experience and learn their profession.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting Spielman here, I'm just saying it can't be that easy to find a good GM.

[The Breeze]

Let's take this in another direction:

Let's say Spielman's out. He's gone, fired, and the Wilfs are gone too. You're the Vikings new owner. If you have a GM in mind, go ahead and name your guy. If not, no problem, we're fans and we aren't expected to know who would make the best hire. Here are the real questions: how long do you give your new GM to field a winner? how long to field a consistent winner?

Spielman's an odd case because he was hired as Personnel Director and spent years as part of an evolving management structure that finally ended in a more traditional management structure. As personnel director, he's been with the Vikings since May of 2006. He's been the General Manager since 2012 This is his third year as the actual GM and his first with the only head coach he chose and hired.

How much control does a GM need to successfully implement his vision for the team? How much time does he need to do that?

I'm not calling for Spielman's head....I don't think he's had vull control for long enough.
The biggest issue around drafting a QB has been who was available in the years he's picked one. There hasn't been much. I suppose we could have had Dalton....but he's not elite.

TB could pan out to be a decent guy...but I don't get the feeling he will ever set the league on fire...just my gut.

If I could play owner and pick my gm I'd hire Denny Green and give him 5 years. The guy is a great talent evaluator IMO.
I'd give him control over coaches and coordinators and would want them to work together in the draft.

I think the vikes are doing it right structurally, finally, I'm not convinced the talent evaluation is competent, especially on the o-line.
Childress and TOA really set this club back.

[chicagopurple]

BUT...do we have a coach capable of molding TB into a top notch QB? I dont know....we havent had that type of coach EVER. Do we even have a QB coach? If so he hasnt been a positive influence on TB...TB is regressing.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I'm not calling for Spielman's head....I don't think he's had vull control for long enough.
The biggest issue around drafting a QB has been who was available in the years he's picked one. There hasn't been much. I suppose we could have had Dalton....but he's not elite.

TB could pan out to be a decent guy...but I don't get the feeling he will ever set the league on fire...just my gut.

If I could play owner and pick my gm I'd hire Denny Green and give him 5 years. The guy is a great talent evaluator IMO.
I'd give him control over coaches and coordinators and would want them to work together in the draft.

I think the vikes are doing it right structurally, finally, I'm not convinced the talent evaluation is competent, especially on the o-line.
Childress and TOA really set this club back.

My biggest thing with Spielman is if you look at 2012 and beyond when he did have FULL control, his draft picks have been pretty solid compared to many other GM's. He's made moves such as trading up for Smith and Bridgewater, and the biggest one of all, he swung a 1st, 3rd, and 7th for Harvin which at the time, was figured to be next to impossible. In turn, that gave us Xavier Rhodes who has been very good so far.

Another thing is, some have complained about Joseph and Munnerlyn. However, how does anyone know what went on behind the scenes?? Nobody does. Zimmer could have easily said, "Munnerlyn and Joseph fit my system perfectly, we have to go out and get them". What's Spielman going to say?? "You don't know s###, I'm doing it my way??" No, its a mutual agreement. Some act like Spielman goes out on his own, doesn't consult anyone and just drafts freely. I can bet money that if Zimmer sits there and says, "Rick, this guy doesn't fit in my system", Rick will likely pass on him. I'm not trying to necessarily blame Zimmer or even Turner for anything, but bottom line is, it's a team effort. Spielman doesn't draft guys just to draft them. Everyone has their say on how players fit the scheme, what needs they can fill, etc.

[maembe]

The reality is they don't have more talent than us without Rodgers ... but they do have Rodgers so I don't understand the point. Not only do they have him, they had the foresight to draft him with Favre still on the roster.

The point is that they don't actually have a more effective GM than us, they just got really, really lucky. If we landed a top 5 QB of all time we would be a top 5 team in the NFL, but landing a top QB is mostly luck.

[chicagopurple]

REALLY?!? REALLY??! Are you so blind that you are willing to label the Packers LOOOONG run of excellence as mere luck??? I may HATE the Pack but I am honest enough to admit that they are a far better run organization then the Vikes or most other teams....Hell, they are a tiny market but they are damn efficient. They have consistently been at the top of our division for decades....thats NOT luck.....wake up.