Vikings' offensive struggles challenge Norv Turner

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Vikings' offensive struggles challenge Norv Turner

Post by Mothman »

Both the star Tribune and the Pioneer Press have articles about the Vikings offensive woes and Norv Turner today:

http://www.twincities.com/vikings/ci_26 ... r-hot-seat
Questions about the Vikings' faltering offense flew like arrows at Norv Turner on Thursday during the coordinator's weekly news conference, variations of what fans have been asking all week.

What's wrong with your pass protection?

Why so many dropped passes?

Where is Cordarrelle Patterson?

How is Teddy Bridgewater responding?

Aren't you supposed to be a genius?

Turner snatched each verbal projectile, tossed it aside and responded with the assurance of a 30-year pro coaching veteran.

No personnel changes were revealed or the slightest annoyance despite scoring 13 points the past two weeks. The Vikings are going to power through, according to Turner.

"When you're struggling a little bit, you can withdraw a little bit. We can't withdraw," he said. "We've got to be aggressive. We've got to go.

"This is a hard-working group. They want to be good," Turner added. "They have high expectations. We have high expectations. I think we had an outstanding practice (Wednesday) from a physical standpoint. That's how you get better."

Here's a link to the Strib article:

Cure for Vikings offense? In Norv they trust
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Re: Vikings' offensive struggles challenge Norv Turner

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

Thanks for the article, Jim.

It's been a tough stretch, for sure. I know every team suffers injuries, so the Vikings can't use that as an excuse. But the pieces we've lost -- our starting QB, the best RB in football, a Pro Bowl tight end, and our starting right guard -- are all very important. I'm not sure any team in the NFL has suffered that many key players on offense.

But again, they can't dwell on the bad luck. They've got to find a way to play through. It all starts up front. Neither the running game nor the passing game has a prayer without better play by the offensive line.
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Re: Vikings' offensive struggles challenge Norv Turner

Post by BGM »

Not much to chew on, but when you have been coaching as long as Norv Turner and been on the hot seat, you probably have coach-speak down to a fine art.
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Re: Vikings' offensive struggles challenge Norv Turner

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J. Kapp 11 wrote:Thanks for the article, Jim.
You're welcome.
It's been a tough stretch, for sure. I know every team suffers injuries, so the Vikings can't use that as an excuse. But the pieces we've lost -- our starting QB, the best RB in football, a Pro Bowl tight end, and our starting right guard -- are all very important. I'm not sure any team in the NFL has suffered that many key players on offense.
I don't know but if they have, they're probably struggling too.

I think losing Peterson was easily the biggest blow because it really impacts the entire offense. He's the type of game-changing player that really draws a lot of attention from opponents and his presence helps open everything else up.

I'm worried about how much time Rudolph has lost in his second and third seasons. Hopefully, it's just a string of bad luck. That happened to Robert Smith early in his Vikings career and he bounced back from it. Hopefully, Rudolph will do the same and has a long stretch of healthy football ahead of him.
But again, they can't dwell on the bad luck. They've got to find a way to play through. It all starts up front. Neither the running game nor the passing game has a prayer without better play by the offensive line.
Agreed. If they can't block effectively, they just won;t be able to establish any consistency on offense.
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Re: Vikings' offensive struggles challenge Norv Turner

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BGM wrote:Not much to chew on, but when you have been coaching as long as Norv Turner and been on the hot seat, you probably have coach-speak down to a fine art.
It's probably second nature to him at this point.

Norv didn't provide much to chew on but there was a point in Matt Vensel's article for the Strib that kind of bugged me:
While Turner isn’t one to make excuses, he certainly wasn’t imagining Bridgewater faking a handoff to McKinnon before deciding whether to throw to tight end Chase Ford or wide receiver Jarius Wright when he was drawing up the Vikings offense before the season.

No, his offense was built around Adrian Peterson, with play-action passes potentially going to emerging tight end Kyle Rudolph or Jerome Simpson, the team’s only true deep threat. He also was probably counting on a sturdier offensive line with Brandon Fusco at right guard.
That's not the first time I've seen Simpson referred to that way but I don't buy that he was the team's only true deep threat and I never thought he was all that effective as a deep threat for the Vikings anyway. I think Wright offers as much in that capacity as Simpson and honestly, is there any reason Patterson couldn't be a deep threat for them? He certainly has the speed.

On a different note, it's hard to believe the Vikes haven't scored on a passing TD since the opening quarter of week 2. Yikes!
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Re: Vikings' offensive struggles challenge Norv Turner

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Mothman wrote: I think Wright offers as much in that capacity as Simpson and honestly, is there any reason Patterson couldn't be a deep threat for them? He certainly has the speed.
No, and I've been saying this as well. He's faster than Sidney Rice (4.42 compared to 4.51 40-yard dash) at 15 pounds heavier and smoked Rice in the broad jump (128" vs. 119"). He is two inches shorter and Rice bested him with a 39.5" vertical (compared to Patterson's 37"). One thing I noticed but it might just be perception is that it seems to take Patterson longer to reach his top-end speed. I'm also on record here wondering why the Vikings didn't use Harvin more as a field stretcher (though now two teams and two offensive coordinators also seem to disagree with me). I wonder if it's a combination of Patterson commanding safety attention, the offensive line not protecting long enough for him to get down the field and the QB to attempt to make an accurate, non-contested throw and his reported difficulty at getting off the jam/route-running ability.

I wish someone would ask Turner that. I'd be really curious to hear his answer. Because there wasn't this relative difficulty with Josh Gordon last year and don't they play the same position in Turner's offense?
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Re: Vikings' offensive struggles challenge Norv Turner

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dead_poet wrote: No, and I've been saying this as well. He's faster than Sidney Rice (4.42 compared to 4.51 40-yard dash) at 15 pounds heavier and smoked Rice in the broad jump (128" vs. 119"). He is two inches shorter and Rice bested him with a 39.5" vertical (compared to Patterson's 37"). One thing I noticed but it might just be perception is that it seems to take Patterson longer to reach his top-end speed. I'm also on record here wondering why the Vikings didn't use Harvin more as a field stretcher (though now two teams and two offensive coordinators also seem to disagree with me). I wonder if it's a combination of Patterson commanding safety attention, the offensive line not protecting long enough for him to get down the field and the QB to attempt to make an accurate, non-contested throw and his reported difficulty at getting off the jam/route-running ability.

I wish someone would ask Turner that. I'd be really curious to hear his answer. Because there wasn't this relative difficulty with Josh Gordon last year and don't they play the same position in Turner's offense?
As long as Bridgewater doesn't get time in the pocket, the deep ball is going to be difficult to achieve. From what I saw of the last game, our OL caves in so quickly that even completing medium deep passes will be a problem.
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Re: Vikings' offensive struggles challenge Norv Turner

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dead_poet wrote:No, and I've been saying this as well. He's faster than Sidney Rice (4.42 compared to 4.51 40-yard dash) at 15 pounds heavier and smoked Rice in the broad jump (128" vs. 119"). He is two inches shorter and Rice bested him with a 39.5" vertical (compared to Patterson's 37"). One thing I noticed but it might just be perception is that it seems to take Patterson longer to reach his top-end speed. I'm also on record here wondering why the Vikings didn't use Harvin more as a field stretcher (though now two teams and two offensive coordinators also seem to disagree with me). I wonder if it's a combination of Patterson commanding safety attention, the offensive line not protecting long enough for him to get down the field and the QB to attempt to make an accurate, non-contested throw and his reported difficulty at getting off the jam/route-running ability.

I wish someone would ask Turner that. I'd be really curious to hear his answer. Because there wasn't this relative difficulty with Josh Gordon last year and don't they play the same position in Turner's offense?
I'm no expert, but here's my take.

Patterson and Harvin are totally different receivers. Harvin is so small that it's hard to throw to him outside the numbers. You can't throw him a high ball or a contested ball because he's not going to jump over anybody grab it, and he's not much of a target for back-shoulder throws. You really need size and jumping ability to be effective on the outside. An obvious extreme example is Calvin Johnson. Another was Michael Irvin. Sidney Rice was this with the Vikings in his big 2009 season. The bigger receivers have the advantage on the outside. Obviously not all outside receivers are as big or fast as Megatron, but the smaller they are, the harder time they have getting open outside. Harvin, to me (and apparently to NFL offensive coordinators) is more of a slot guy. His damage is done in the middle of the field or behind the line of scrimmage. I honestly believe this is why Greg Jennings hasn't made more of an impact with the Vikings. In his best days with Green Bay, he was a slot receiver. At 5-10, he's not very big for an outside receiver.

All of which begs the question -- why isn't Patterson more of an outside threat? You've shown in his combine metrics that he has the size, speed and jumping ability to be successful there. So what's the problem? Is it route running? Inability to beat press coverage? Lack of trust by the quarterbacks to throw at him when he's covered? More defensive attention since coordinators don't have to deal with Peterson? A combination?
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Re: Vikings' offensive struggles challenge Norv Turner

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J. Kapp 11 wrote:Patterson and Harvin are totally different receivers. Harvin is so small that it's hard to throw to him outside the numbers. You can't throw him a high ball or a contested ball because he's not going to jump over anybody grab it, and he's not much of a target for back-shoulder throws. You really need size and jumping ability to be effective on the outside.
I should've addressed this in my post because I knew a savvy poster like yourself was going to bring it up. While I think it's an advantage to have height, I don't believe it's a requirement to be an effective outside receiver. I mean, seriously, Steve Smith is 5'8 (three inches shorter than Harvin) and at his peak he was one of the best outside receivers in the league (or best receivers period). Heck, he still is. And how about Antonio Brown? He's listed as an inch shorter than Harvin and has been a top-3 receiver the last couple of years.
but the smaller they are, the harder time they have getting open outside.
I don't necessarily buy that. Sometimes shorter guys are quicker (understanding the difference between quick and top-end fast) and are able to create separation on larger, lankier corners more than their taller counterparts. I do think that the league values taller receivers to win contested balls and there's perhaps a larger margin of error or increased chance for a completion if a receiver is as tall or taller than the defender. However, if the ball is placed where it should be, a shorter receiver has just as much of an opportunity to make the reception.
Harvin, to me (and apparently to NFL offensive coordinators) is more of a slot guy. His damage is done in the middle of the field or behind the line of scrimmage.
I think he's absolutely effective there. I'm just not convinced that's the only place where he'd win.
All of which begs the question -- why isn't Patterson more of an outside threat? You've shown in his combine metrics that he has the size, speed and jumping ability to be successful there. So what's the problem? Is it route running? Inability to beat press coverage? Lack of trust by the quarterbacks to throw at him when he's covered? More defensive attention since coordinators don't have to deal with Peterson? A combination?
Relevant article: http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Expe ... ning101614
The expectations couldn't have been higher for Patterson, who has just 17 catches and a rushing touchdown in six games of 2014.

"I feel like these last couple weeks, I've been thinking too much," Patterson told 1500ESPN.com. "I've been trying to do what people want me to do. I just have to buy into myself, be yourself and great things will happen for you."
"[Patterson] had a chance to get his feet wet," receivers coach George Stewart said. "We brought him along slow as we talked about this summer, in terms of special teams, some offense. And now we give him a lot more responsibility being a starting 'X' receiver for us. He has taken it, but again there's that learning curve, because everything is new. The route structures are different, terminology is different."
Patterson is not immune to the blame. Head coach Mike Zimmer has repeatedly said his star receiver needs to be more efficient in getting open on his routes - repeating a four-step mantra on Thursday that his coaching staff has preached to receivers this week: "Get into the route, win in transition, get out of the route and extend to the football," Zimmer said.
The entire article is worth a read. Maybe he's just not "seasoned" yet and we all have really high expectations for him. I recall it took Vincent Jackson three full years to start realizing his potential, which isn't unheard of for receivers. Patterson may be behind that curve given how raw he was coming out of college.
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Re: Vikings' offensive struggles challenge Norv Turner

Post by mansquatch »

Another aspect of Patterson is that he isn't excatly the sharpest knife in the drawer. His academic record was rather pedestrian. He doens't need to be einstein to play WR, but if his study skills need work, then it is another hurdle he'll have to overcome.
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Re: Vikings' offensive struggles challenge Norv Turner

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dead_poet wrote:
I think that might be the biggest problem, right there. As Stewart said, there's a learning curve associated with the position but because the Vikes are using Patterson as the X receiver, he's stuck on the line of scrimmage, where he can't be sent in motion and DBs can come up and press him. He has to learn the route structures and terminology but he's also more likely to be in man-to-man coverage against the opponent's best CB, to face press coverage, etc. As far as his long term development goes, all of this may be good but for a team that needs him to help jump-start their offense, maybe it's not so good. Using him as the Y or Z receiver might involve getting him to absorb more information but it could also allow the Vikes to move him around, get him off the line, create some more favorable matchups, etc. I'm not saying they need to completely change his position and give up on developing as an X receiver but it might be a good idea to work in some plays for him from the Y and Z spots and see if getting him off the line and moving him around pays dividends.
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Re: Vikings' offensive struggles challenge Norv Turner

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

dead_poet wrote:I should've addressed this in my post because I knew a savvy poster like yourself was going to bring it up. While I think it's an advantage to have height, I don't believe it's a requirement to be an effective outside receiver. I mean, seriously, Steve Smith is 5'8 (three inches shorter than Harvin) and at his peak he was one of the best outside receivers in the league (or best receivers period). Heck, he still is. And how about Antonio Brown? He's listed as an inch shorter than Harvin and has been a top-3 receiver the last couple of years.
Yeah, we've discussed this before. I won't counter much ... I disagree, but that's all good.

Steve Smith is the exception to the rule, IMO. For one thing, he's very strong, which definitely helps against corners who try to jam him. For another, he's just nasty, for lack of a better term. He's got the fire to just beat you. And he's a great, great route runner. All of which add up to a guy who can get open short, intermediate, or deep. I can't argue the fact that he's really good. But I believe he is the exception for short guys. The difference between Harvin and Smith is not one of height, but of size/strength. There's no comparison, and there probably never will be. Harvin is a small dude.

When I think of top outside guys, I think of Megatron, A.J. Green, Vincent Jackson, Julio Jones, Jordy Nelson, those types. Even guys like Keenan Allen (6-2) and Reggie Wayne (6-0) have some length working for them. Harvin is short AND small. He reminds me of a much faster, more dangerous version of Wes Welker.

But that's just me and my "if I were GM" world. :wink:
dead_poet wrote:The entire article is worth a read. Maybe he's just not "seasoned" yet and we all have really high expectations for him. I recall it took Vincent Jackson three full years to start realizing his potential, which isn't unheard of for receivers. Patterson may be behind that curve given how raw he was coming out of college.
Agree totally. He's not seasoned, and he definitely was/is raw. At some point, he needs to realize it and maybe work a little harder. IDK. Maybe that's not fair, but it sure seems like somebody with his immense talent should be more of a factor, even if he's only in his second year.
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Re: Vikings' offensive struggles challenge Norv Turner

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J. Kapp 11 wrote:Steve Smith is the exception to the rule, IMO. For one thing, he's very strong, which definitely helps against corners who try to jam him. For another, he's just nasty, for lack of a better term. He's got the fire to just beat you. And he's a great, great route runner. All of which add up to a guy who can get open short, intermediate, or deep. I can't argue the fact that he's really good. But I believe he is the exception for short guys. The difference between Harvin and Smith is not one of height, but of size/strength. There's no comparison, and there probably never will be. Harvin is a small dude.
I won't disagree on route-running or Smith Sr.'s nasty disposition, but I argue the fact that Harvin is "small."

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When I think of top outside guys, I think of Megatron, A.J. Green, Vincent Jackson, Julio Jones, Jordy Nelson, those types. Even guys like Keenan Allen (6-2) and Reggie Wayne (6-0) have some length working for them.
Those guys come to mind first for me, too. And I won't disagree that height is an advantage. Reggie Wayne is only one inch taller! It's hard for me to believe that one or two inches would disqualify a receiver from being effective on the outside (or, to put another way, as effective outside as he is inside). I would agree that route-running may be a factor but as a coach or GM, I would've given Harvin the opportunity to succeed on the outside, if anything else to give him more snaps as he's likely one of (if not the best) receivers on the team. Whenever he's on the field he's one of (if not the) fastest players out there. I just think it's a lost opportunity keeping him on the bench during two-wide sets and then not letting him stretch the field deep. Heck, Jarius Wright is an inch shorter and a few pounds lighter and he seems to be adept as a deep threat. You probably won't be able to convince me that he has more talent or speed than Harvin.
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Re: Vikings' offensive struggles challenge Norv Turner

Post by losperros »

Mothman wrote: I think that might be the biggest problem, right there. As Stewart said, there's a learning curve associated with the position but because the Vikes are using Patterson as the X receiver, he's stuck on the line of scrimmage, where he can't be sent in motion and DBs can come up and press him. He has to learn the route structures and terminology but he's also more likely to be in man-to-man coverage against the opponent's best CB, to face press coverage, etc. As far as his long term development goes, all of this may be good but for a team that needs him to help jump-start their offense, maybe it's not so good. Using him as the Y or Z receiver might involve getting him to absorb more information but it could also allow the Vikes to move him around, get him off the line, create some more favorable matchups, etc. I'm not saying they need to completely change his position and give up on developing as an X receiver but it might be a good idea to work in some plays for him from the Y and Z spots and see if getting him off the line and moving him around pays dividends.
When I read Stewart's description regarding Patterson being a starting "x" receiver, I couldn't help but wonder why they did it. Maybe it's the lack of other WRs that could fill Patterson's spot if they moved him around more often. Anyway, it sounds as if he's getting a lot thrown his way in a small amount of time, besides just the football. I'm just not worried about Patterson. He has already proven that he's loaded with talent. I think the rest of his game will come together.

That said, the pressing problem with the passing game is that Bridgewater has no time to throw. The Vikings have WRs that can run after the catch, including Patterson, so they may want utilize them in this way. Again, seems like moving Patterson around more often would be wise.
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Re: Vikings' offensive struggles challenge Norv Turner

Post by HardcoreVikesFan »

I am still salty about Percy Harvin not being on this team. I still think it was a knee-jerk reaction to let him walk. Idk. Xavier Rhodes is nice, and Jerrick McKinnon may be a great find, but I mean, potentially, we could have had Percy and Patterson on this team. Unlikely? Very. Possible? Definitely.


Anyway, Patterson's production has frustrated me immensely. I blame Norv a lot for the lack of production, but part of it is Cordarrelle himself. Given his size and athletic ability, there shouldn't be a reason he is struggling against press coverage. I mean, the guy has to win the battle within the first five yards.

That being said, I think it is complete BS we haven't tried to hand the ball off to Cordarrele or at least try the bubble with him. Patterson HAS to get more involved.
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