Priefer Deserves His Own Thread

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DanAS
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Re: Priefer Deserves His Own Thread

Post by DanAS »

I was reading ESPN's article about the Twins cancelling Chuck Knoblauch's Twins' Hall of Fame induction ceremony because he is accused of beating his ex-wife, after having received probation for beating another ex-wife. The very first comment was:

"Just suspend the ceremony for two games."

That pretty much sums up my sentiments about this Priefer matter. And frankly, as to Knoblauch, my recollection is that after he left the Twins and went to the Yankees he then bad-mouthed the Twins fans. I'm not sure it's a great loss that he's not in the Twins' Hall. Though I do appreciate his efforts on the legendary Lonnie Smith play in game 7 of the 1991 World Series -- still one of the greatest games I've ever seen in any sport.
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Re: Priefer Deserves His Own Thread

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DanAS wrote:Exactly.

But your hypothetical statement is unrealistic. These days, people don't just accuse my people of wrecking some league or some nation. We're responsible for ruining the world, right? :wallbang:

By the way, they also whipped that the ol' two game suspension for Ray Rice. Why bother?
DanAS wrote:I was reading ESPN's article about the Twins cancelling Chuck Knoblauch's Twins' Hall of Fame induction ceremony because he is accused of beating his ex-wife, after having received probation for beating another ex-wife. The very first comment was:

"Just suspend the ceremony for two games."

That pretty much sums up my sentiments about this Priefer matter.
Perhaps he should be put out in front of Winter Park in the stocks for a week or maybe they should tar and feather him.

Oh, and he should have to wear a scarlet "H" on chest all season!

A three game suspension, a two game suspension after completing sensitivity training... 6 games... 12 games... no matter what the Vikings do, someone's sense of personal justice is bound to go unsatisfied.

This was hardly the crime of the century and I seriously doubt an extra 4-6 game suspension would get the point across any more clearly to Priefer, who must have heard it loud and clear by now.
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Re: Priefer Deserves His Own Thread

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Mothman wrote:
Perhaps he should be put out in front of Winter Park in the stocks for a week or maybe they should tar and feather him.

Oh, and he should have to wear a scarlet "H" on chest all season!

A three game suspension, a two game suspension after completing sensitivity training... 6 games... 12 games... no matter what the Vikings do, someone's sense of personal justice is bound to go unsatisfied.

This was hardly the crime of the century and I seriously doubt an extra 4-6 game suspension would get the point across any more clearly to Priefer, who must have heard it loud and clear by now.
Sarcasm is ugly, Jim.
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Re: Priefer Deserves His Own Thread

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DanAS wrote: Sarcasm is ugly, Jim.
On the contrary, I think it serves a valuable purpose as a means of making a point and a way to inject a little humor into overly heavy discussions. :) Besides, we're really not all that far from the examples I sarcastically cited, are we? If I understand you correctly, you want a very public example made of Priefer to send a "zero tolerance" message about homophobia in NFL locker rooms. Wasn't that sort of public-humiliation-as-detriment the purpose of the stocks, tarring and feathering or Hawthorne's scarlet letter? If the sarcasm bites, maybe it's because it hits close to the truth.

No matter what's done, someone's sense of personal justice is bound to go unsatisfied here. The punishment will be too much, too little, etc. There's no sweet spot to satisfy everyone. You've made your point: Priefer's the bad guy and 2-3 weeks plus sensitivity training doesn't seem like enough punishment to you. That's understandable but it seems a little naive to believe adding a few more weeks onto that suspension will make any real difference. After watching this entire fiasco unfold, do you honestly think other NFL coaches haven't already received the message or that adding another 4-6 weeks to it will insure that it gets across? Do you think they won't be more aware of the language they use in the wake of this case? I doubt any coach is eager to follow in Priefer's footsteps and become the next "symbol of hatred".

I disapprove of what he said but I also cringe at the way saying the wrong thing has become the new crime of the century, as if nobody is tough enough anymore to withstand a little offensive language. Whatever happened to "sticks and stones..."?
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Re: Priefer Deserves His Own Thread

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Mothman wrote:

Sarcasm is ugly, Jim.
On the contrary, I think it serves a valuable purpose as a means of making a point and a way to inject a little humor into overly heavy discussions. :) Besides, we're really not all that far from the examples I sarcastically cited, are we? If I understand you correctly, you want a very public example made of Priefer to send a "zero tolerance" message about homophobia in NFL locker rooms. Wasn't that sort of public-humiliation-as-detriment the purpose of the stocks, tarring and feathering or Hawthorne's scarlet letter? If the sarcasm bites, maybe it's because it hits close to the truth.

No matter what's done, someone's sense of personal justice is bound to go unsatisfied here. The punishment will be too much, too little, etc. There's no sweet spot to satisfy everyone. You've made your point: Priefer's the bad guy and 2-3 weeks plus sensitivity training doesn't seem like enough punishment to you. That's understandable but it seems a little naive to believe adding a few more weeks onto that suspension will make any real difference. After watching this entire fiasco unfold, do you honestly think other NFL coaches haven't already received the message or that adding another 4-6 weeks to it will insure that it gets across? Do you think they won't be more aware of the language they use in the wake of this case? I doubt any coach is eager to follow in Priefer's footsteps and become the next "symbol of hatred".

I disapprove of what he said but I also cringe at the way saying the wrong thing has become the new crime of the century, as if nobody is tough enough anymore to withstand a little offensive language. Whatever happened to "sticks and stones..."?[/quote]

But you either don't fully try to understand what I'm saying or else you ignore what you understand in order to make rhetorical points.

I have spoken about separating the sin from the sinner. We all make mistakes. We all saying stupid things. We've all said things that have the capacity to offend people. In the case of Priefer, I'm not trying to say he is a "bad guy." What I am saying is that he said a very, very bad thing in a context where he is responsible for avoiding saying certain things. And it is important to hold people accountable in such a context.

You never have addressed my analogy of what would happen if I ever came on romantically to a subordinate at the office who then complained that she was being sexually harassed. In this hypothetical, I would have only used words -- there would have been no physical assault, just words. But even so, I could lose my job for that. It would be part of a zero tolerance policy toward certain type of words in the workplace. And I think that type of policy is generally viewed these days as an appropriate way of dealing with what had been a major problem in the past.

I have compassion for Priefer. I'm not looking for him to lose his job. But nor do I think his statement, in the context where he made it, can be compared to the "sticks and stones" situation, which makes me think about a 12 year old being taught not to react violently when another 12 year old insults him.

Can political correctness be taken too far? Oh my God yes. But what Priefer said (a) is about as loathsome a brief comment as can be made, (b) was made while in a workplace setting when he was acting as a supervisor talking to his subordinates (and not merely in a private conversation either), and (c) is the type of comment that historically has served as a way of cementing a homophobic environment in sports locker rooms. I don't see how a team can justify simply shrugging it off. As for how strong a statement it should have made, I have agreed from the start that reasonable people can disagree, but I've also stated my own opinion favoring a longer suspension.

Mostly, what I'm objecting to is your rhetoric. "Crime of the Century," "Scarlet H," etc. Regardless of whether I put on my philosopher, my attorney, or my interfaith leader hat, I don't care much for extreme hyperbole or sarcasm as methods of communication. But hey, if that's the way you like to discuss things, my friend, I'm OK with it. I understand that you are coming from a good place. And truly, when it comes to methods of discussion/debate, the "sticks and stones" principle clearly should apply.

Let's get back to talking about football, shall we? I've realized lately how scared I am about the Vikes defense. The offensive line scares me a bit, but I think we're close to having a very good offense in the fairly near future. It's the D that scares me -- and specifically, the talent level on that D.
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Re: Priefer Deserves His Own Thread

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DanAS wrote:But you either don't fully try to understand what I'm saying or else you ignore what you understand in order to make rhetorical points.

I have spoken about separating the sin from the sinner. We all make mistakes. We all saying stupid things. We've all said things that have the capacity to offend people. In the case of Priefer, I'm not trying to say he is a "bad guy." What I am saying is that he said a very, very bad thing in a context where he is responsible for avoiding saying certain things. And it is important to hold people accountable in such a context.
I'm crystal clear on all of the above, Dan. I think I do understand what you're saying so I'm sorry if it seems otherwise. I assure you, I'm not ignoring it.

I do feel compelled to point out, again, that Priefer is being held accountable.
You never have addressed my analogy of what would happen if I ever came on romantically to a subordinate at the office who then complained that she was being sexually harassed. In this hypothetical, I would have only used words -- there would have been no physical assault, just words. But even so, I could lose my job for that. It would be part of a zero tolerance policy toward certain type of words in the workplace. And I think that type of policy is generally viewed these days as an appropriate way of dealing with what had been a major problem in the past.
It seems like we've covered it in the overall discussion and Priefer's actions have had consequences (which was the point of your original analogy, correct?). They were not simply tolerated.

One man's appropriate punishment is another's slap on the wrist. There's just no way to please everybody.
I have compassion for Priefer. I'm not looking for him to lose his job. But nor do I think his statement, in the context where he made it, can be compared to the "sticks and stones" situation, which makes me think about a 12 year old being taught not to react violently when another 12 year old insults him.
I always focused more on the "words will never hurt me" part of the saying, which is how I was using it above, but I made that "sticks and stones" in reference to a general trend in society more than to this specific situation.
Mostly, what I'm objecting to is your rhetoric. "Crime of the Century," "Scarlet H," etc. Regardless of whether I put on my philosopher, my attorney, or my interfaith leader hat, I don't care much for extreme hyperbole or sarcasm as methods of communication. But hey, if that's the way you like to discuss things, my friend, I'm OK with it. I understand that you are coming from a good place. And truly, when it comes to methods of discussion/debate, the "sticks and stones" principle clearly should apply.
I apologize for the sarcasm. It's a part of my sense of humor and personality that's very difficult to shut off and I do find it an effective way to make a point. Suffice to say that when you write, "Can political correctness be taken too far? Oh my God yes" we're in complete agreement about that point and it's a subject that brings out my sarcastic side in a big way.
Let's get back to talking about football, shall we? I've realized lately how scared I am about the Vikes defense. The offensive line scares me a bit, but I think we're close to having a very good offense in the fairly near future. It's the D that scares me -- and specifically, the talent level on that D.
Same here. There's a great deal of faith in Zimmer's ability to coach it into a good unit and I think that eventually, he will be able to do that but I expect some growing pains from that unit this year, not a fast and immediate turnaround. I do think they will be better though.
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Re: Priefer Deserves His Own Thread

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Evidently 17 state legislators don't think a 3 game suspension for Priefer is adequate:

http://www.wctrib.com/content/legislato ... ings-owner
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Re: Priefer Deserves His Own Thread

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Mothman wrote:
Guess what, the comment wasn't about another group of people and the degree to which it's taken seriously, as if Priefer actually, literally wanted what he said to happen, shows just how completely off the rails things have gone.
How can you be so sure? It's not unusual that nasty, hateful things that are said are at least meant in part. Have you been in any comments sections lately discussing homosexuality? Never met a homophobe before? You've never just witnessed some ignorant people talking about various topics and being hateful? There are hundreds of people who say similar things about "all the gays should be this...or that." It's a real thing, and yes, there are those people who do wish these things. It's really disgusting. So how are you so sure that Priefer didn't somewhat mean it? Seriously, next time an athlete or actor comes out, do yourself a favor and read the comments section. You'll see a lot of ignorance and hateful words. Maybe then, and only then, will you realize that there is a possibility that there was at least some truth to what he said. And for those of us who do believe that you don't say something so idiotic without actually being a little hateful and ignorant, that's probably why we have less patience for it. I've heard/read so many similar comments to even count, so to suggest "oh, he didn't even mean it" with such certainty, actually comes off as a bit naïve. There is a good chance he did mean it! Maybe not, but maybe so. But, of course, it's so easy for him to deny, deny, deny...isn't it? ;)
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Re: Priefer Deserves His Own Thread

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Funkytown wrote: How can you be so sure? It's not unusual that nasty, hateful things that are said are at least meant in part. Have you been in any comments sections lately discussing homosexuality? Never met a homophobe before? You've never just witnessed some ignorant people talking about various topics and being hateful? There are hundreds of people who say similar things about "all the gays should be this...or that." It's a real thing, and yes, there are those people who do wish these things. It's really disgusting. So how are you so sure that Priefer didn't somewhat mean it? Seriously, next time an athlete or actor comes out, do yourself a favor and read the comments section. You'll see a lot of ignorance and hateful words. Maybe then, and only then, will you realize that there is a possibility that there was at least some truth to what he said. And for those of us who do believe that you don't say something so idiotic without actually being a little hateful and ignorant, that's probably why we have less patience for it. I've heard/read so many similar comments to even count, so to suggest "oh, he didn't even mean it" with such certainty, actually comes off as a bit naïve. There is a good chance he did mean it! Maybe not, but maybe so. But, of course, it's so easy for him to deny, deny, deny...isn't it? ;)
"Maybe then, and only then..."? You continually presume to know much more about me than you do.

I assure you, having grown up in an era where bigotry was more prevalent than it is now and in an area where it was an unfortunate reality around me, I'm familiar with the concept, though I am not a bigoted person myself. I'm not naive about the existence of bigoted viewpoints and bigoted people.

As for Priefer... I never said I was sure what he meant. However, considering the degree of support people have expressed for him, Loeffler's version of events and the absence of any previous indications of bigotry in Priefer's professional history, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until convincing proof emerges to suggest otherwise.

On the other hand, the last few sentences of your post above seem to imply that you're operating on more of a "guilty until proven innocent" philosophy.
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Re: Priefer Deserves His Own Thread

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fiestavike wrote:I support Mike Priefer. I think he made a stupid comment in private which should never have been made public, has paid pretty severely for it in terms of scrutiny, scorn and actual punishment, made what seemed to me a sincere apology, and overall seems to be a pretty good guy. So I will say again, I support Mike Priefer, and I hope we can move on from this an other similar cases of what amounts to little more than "thought crime" in the final analysis anyway. I also hope he can survive "sensitivity training" which if it is anything like some of the things we had to sit through our first year of college would make most sane people insane.
:lol:
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Re: Priefer Deserves His Own Thread

Post by Funkytown »

Mothman wrote:
As for Priefer... I never said I was sure what he meant.
Oftentimes, you seem to imply otherwise with comments like:
...as if Priefer actually, literally wanted what he said to happen, shows just how completely off the rails things have gone.
You seem more sure than some of us are. I think some of us still don't care if he "meant it or not," as we recognize how completely foolish and ignorant the comment was, regardless of context. But I'm not sure any of us would be completely off with suggesting that part of him could have meant it. Again, these kinds of comments are fairly common, and people do mean them. I know you know that. ...back up, I think you know that. ;)
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Re: Priefer Deserves His Own Thread

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Funkytown wrote:I think some of us still don't care if he "meant it or not," as we recognize how completely foolish and ignorant the comment was, regardless of context. But I'm not sure any of us would be completely off with suggesting that part of him could have meant it. Again, these kinds of comments are fairly common, and people do mean them. I know you know that. ...back up, I think you know that. ;)
Let's just stipulate that nasty comments get made, that sometimes people make them sincerely and sometimes they don't and move on. The sincerity of the comment isn't really the point (at least not the point I was making). I was talking about the ongoing reactions to the comment. All these cries for greater accountability are really cries for greater consequences and more severe punishment. To me, that implies that people are either angry because it touches some nerve involving their own experience and they want their personal sense of justice satisfied or they're viewing it as a means to an end. In other words, they have agendas beyond the scope of this particular case of inappropriate commentary in the workplace.

As far as I can tell, there is near-universal agreement that what Priefer said was foolish, ignorant and unacceptable. That point has been made. We also have accountability. People are saying his behavior shouldn't be tolerated, that the organization shouldn't turn a blind eye to it and they haven't. It isn't being tolerated by the public or the Vikings, who immediately launched an investigation. They concluded that he did something unacceptable. They are punishing him by suspending him without pay. They are requiring him to take sensitivity training. We have accountability and we have consequences (including the scrutiny and scorn fiestavike mentioned above).
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