Defensive Line Leagues Best ?

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Slick Rick
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Re: Defensive Line Leagues Best ?

Post by Slick Rick »

Eli wrote:I'll believe it when I see it. I certainly don't see much of an upgrade in talent. Linval Joseph is a 2nd or 3rd tier defensive tackle in this league. And it puts a lot of hope in the development of Sharrif Floyd. The only thing I see as improvements are that they're getting younger and maybe more balanced with a true nose tackle in Joseph. Brian Robison is a solid, if unspectacular DE and Everson Griffen is still a long way from proving himself to be an elite pass rusher in a full time role.
I think you're a little off on a couple of things. Linval Joseph is an elite 4-3 nose tackle, Robison is an elite 4-3 DE, and Griffen has put up massive numbers relative to the amount of work he's put in. Giving him a shot in a full-time role only makes sense for us, and while he hasn't actually proven anything in the starting role, he has proven himself as a pass rusher. As for Floyd, I'm not that worried about him. He has a lot of physical talent, he only stands to improve on his technique by the time the season rolls around, and playing next to a legit nose tackle in a scheme that should make good use of his skill set ought to help him out a lot.

Overall, I can't say we have the #1 defensive line, but I definitely think that it has elite potential written all over it. Getting Joseph was absolutely huge.
Demi wrote:That's my question. Once teams start game planning against him as a full time starter. Can he even have the success he's had as a part time pass rusher? The talking heads like to bring up how Zimmer's defense is "stop the run" first for ends, is this going to be an issue? And once he's full time on the outside, is he going to be smothered regularly? Especially on rushing downs when he can't just focus solely on his quickness and explosiveness at the snap? We'll see but seems a pretty big question considering his contract and how he'll likely get a majority of the snaps, even with the signings.
Coach Zimmer is very involved in the process of who he wants and doesn't want. If he likes Griffen, I'm sure he's confident that he can fit him in with the scheme.
Last edited by Slick Rick on Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Eli
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Re: Defensive Line Leagues Best ?

Post by Eli »

Slick Rick wrote:I think you're a little off on a couple of things. Linval Joseph is an elite 4-3 nose tackle, Robison is an elite 4-3 DE
You couldn't be more wrong on either account. Unless you think there are 20 or so "elite" players at those positions. My definition of elite is a little more stringent.
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Re: Defensive Line Leagues Best ?

Post by Demi »

Eli wrote: You couldn't be more wrong on either account. Unless you think there are 20 or so "elite" players at those positions. My definition of elite is a little more stringent.
Yeah, not sure why people think these guys are some perennial pro bowlers. They're both above average, but "elite"? Come on now...
Slick Rick
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Re: Defensive Line Leagues Best ?

Post by Slick Rick »

Eli wrote: You couldn't be more wrong on either account. Unless you think there are 20 or so "elite" players at those positions. My definition of elite is a little more stringent.
Well then what would you consider an "elite" player? Robison and Allen were the 2nd best DE combination in the NFL last year in WPA. Given the fact that Robison was leading the NFL in QB hurries for a good chunk of the year on top of that, I'd say that makes him at least a top 10 DE in the NFL. Well, when you consider that there are 2 starting edge rushers on every team, and that there are 32 teams, I'd say that makes him an elite talent.

As for Joseph, I'm not going to explain it very much, he had the best WPA for a 4-3 NT in the NFL last year, and tied for the 9th best WPA overall for all defensive tackles. NT types usually don't accumulate great stats, since they tend to be used as run-pluggers who "stay at home", only breaking their assignment if the protection is breaking. Dude's just a really smart, really strong, really quick, really fast, and really big SOB.
Demi wrote:Yeah, not sure why people think these guys are some perennial pro bowlers. They're both above average, but "elite"? Come on now...
Well you don't have to be elite to make the pro bowl, and elite players sometimes don't make the pro bowl. Pat Williams was a top 10 defensive tackle every year, and how many pro bowls did he make? Not that it matters, since I literally never said he was going to make the pro bowl! :lol:
Purple bruise
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Re: Defensive Line Leagues Best ?

Post by Purple bruise »

Love this signing with Joseph and could become very elite..
http://www.vikings.com/media-vault/vide ... b546ad8867
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Re: Defensive Line Leagues Best ?

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Well you don't have to be elite to make the pro bowl, and elite players sometimes don't make the pro bowl.
All pro then? How about the "not hit free agency" list? They didn't even make that. And yet they're both "elite"? Do you realize what "elite" is?...
Eli
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Re: Defensive Line Leagues Best ?

Post by Eli »

Demi wrote: All pro then? How about the "not hit free agency" list? They didn't even make that. And yet they're both "elite"? Do you realize what "elite" is?...
Yeah, the Giants didn't seem to make much effort to keep Joseph's services. At just 25 years old and a former 2nd round pick, what's the deal?

Some comments from Giants fans:

> Why are people calling losing Joseph a big loss?
> He was a solid player. Nothing special at all.

> I'm very confident that Hankins will be a better player than Joseph

> I’m not a big Joseph fan but it seems that even I overvalued him.
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jackal
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Re: Defensive Line Leagues Best ?

Post by jackal »

I am really excited about defense next year .
We had some guy that needed to go and our
Position coaches sucked IMO the last few years.
I am hoping Mauti can get healthy for us. Next
year I want 3/4 defense with Cole Mauti Greenway
high draft pick
no one expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Slick Rick
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Re: Defensive Line Leagues Best ?

Post by Slick Rick »

Demi wrote: All pro then? How about the "not hit free agency" list? They didn't even make that. And yet they're both "elite"? Do you realize what "elite" is?...
Enlighten me. I've already made my argument, and it's pretty substantial. Not making free agency means you didn't make free agency. Are you saying that because Drew Brees hit free agency, that he isn't an elite QB? How about Peyton Manning? Your argument has so many holes that if swiss cheese could blush, that's exactly what it'd be doing right now. :lol:

Again, All-Pros are as much opinion as Pro Bowls. The opinions might be more serious/enlightened, but they're still opinions none the less. I've used stats. How about you?
Eli wrote:Yeah, the Giants didn't seem to make much effort to keep Joseph's services. At just 25 years old and a former 2nd round pick, what's the deal?

Some comments from Giants fans:

> Why are people calling losing Joseph a big loss?
> He was a solid player. Nothing special at all.

> I'm very confident that Hankins will be a better player than Joseph

> I’m not a big Joseph fan but it seems that even I overvalued him.
I trust the evaluations of professionals and statistics over the opinions of guys who probably spend Sundays sitting at home eating pizza and yelling at their TVs. That's just me, though.
Eli
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Re: Defensive Line Leagues Best ?

Post by Eli »

Slick Rick wrote:I trust the evaluations of professionals and statistics over the opinions of guys who probably spend Sundays sitting at home eating pizza and yelling at their TVs. That's just me, though.
Are you talking about the Giants' front office?
Purple bruise
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Re: Defensive Line Leagues Best ?

Post by Purple bruise »

Slick Rick wrote: Enlighten me. I've already made my argument, and it's pretty substantial. Not making free agency means you didn't make free agency. Are you saying that because Drew Brees hit free agency, that he isn't an elite QB? How about Peyton Manning? Your argument has so many holes that if swiss cheese could blush, that's exactly what it'd be doing right now. :lol:

Again, All-Pros are as much opinion as Pro Bowls. The opinions might be more serious/enlightened, but they're still opinions none the less. I've used stats. How about you?
I trust the evaluations of professionals and statistics over the opinions of guys who probably spend Sundays sitting at home eating pizza and yelling at their TVs. That's just me, though.
From Rant Sports: "The Giants cannot afford to lose Joseph. He is prolific, only 25-years-old and without him their run defense becomes a liability. If the Giants can re-sign Joseph and continue to develop last year’s second-round pick Johnathan Hankins, the team will have a formidable interior line just coming into its prime.
Reese is historically known for playing hardball with free agents.
As a rookie GM he didn’t back down from Michael Strahan nor did he acquiesce to the demands of Osi Umenyiora. But it’s time for Joseph to get paid. He made $500,000 last year, and Joseph is worth at least ten times that.
Reese needs to lock Joseph up with a five to six-year contract in the $32-38 million range. And if that doesn’t work, he should franchise tag Joseph for one year and $9.1 million, giving the two sides additional time to work out a long-term contra
Read more at http://www.rantsports.com/nfl/2014/02/1 ... LEgJYMz.99

From ESPN NFL: "To me, Linval Joseph is the kind of player you work to keep. He's 25 years old. He's an accomplished run-stuffer who also can crash the pocket from the interior of the defensive line. He's a solid, well-liked teammate who carries himself like a pro and doesn't do anything to embarrass your franchise on or off the field. He's missed one game in the past three years. He's a Super Bowl champion. He was a second-round draft pick who really panned out".
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york-giants ... for-giants
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Eli
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Re: Defensive Line Leagues Best ?

Post by Eli »

[Joseph is] a solid, well-liked teammate who carries himself like a pro and doesn't do anything to embarrass your franchise on or off the field.
Not exactly the sort of glowing description you'd expect for a $6M a year lineman. "Doesn't do anything to embarrass".

I'm sure the Giants would have liked to have kept him. Just not to the tune of $31.5M for five years. Obviously the Vikings valued him much more than the team that drafted and developed him over the past four years.
Slick Rick
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Re: Defensive Line Leagues Best ?

Post by Slick Rick »

Eli wrote: Are you talking about the Giants' front office?
What have the Giants said about him, or are you assuming that by not paying him 6M a year that they thought he was average? No one wants to pay a 4-3 NT 6M a year, but you do it when they're as exceptional as Joseph. Other teams probably thought they could get a good deal on him, and the Vikings were prepared to give him what he was actually worth. As I've said, he was the best player at his position in the NFL last year, and the 9th best interior defensive lineman overall. You can argue it with the perceived slights by his organization and fans all you want, but we have some of the best talent evaluators in the NFL on our staff at this point. Zimmer knows exactly what type of players he wants, and Rick knows the business as well as anyone.
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Re: Defensive Line Leagues Best ?

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As I've said, he was the best player at his position in the NFL last year, and the 9th best interior defensive lineman overall. You can argue it with the perceived slights by his organization and fans all you want, but we have some of the best talent evaluators in the NFL on our staff at this point. Zimmer knows exactly what type of players he wants, and Rick knows the business as well as anyone.
Best talent evaluators are on OUR staff? Let me guess, they're "elite"? Which is why we've had so much success lately? And why we have so much talent and depth at so many positions? Come on. Rick knows the business as well as anyone? Guess that's why they had all that success in Chicago, Miami, and now Minnesota while he was there huh?

And we can't argue your "stat" because it's a manufactured stat created by a fan who probably sits on his couch yelling at his TV and eating pizza on Sundays...
Slick Rick
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Re: Defensive Line Leagues Best ?

Post by Slick Rick »

Demi wrote:Best talent evaluators are on OUR staff? Let me guess, they're "elite"? Which is why we've had so much success lately? And why we have so much talent and depth at so many positions? Come on. Rick knows the business as well as anyone? Guess that's why they had all that success in Chicago, Miami, and now Minnesota while he was there huh?

And we can't argue your "stat" because it's a manufactured stat created by a fan who probably sits on his couch yelling at his TV and eating pizza on Sundays...
Let's get a few things straight, Demiboy. All NFL talent evaluators are better at what they do than fans who discuss things based off what little they know on a message board. That's why they're evaluating talent for a living, and the fans are posting their opinions on message boards. Until then, we argue based off of what we know. I happen to use facts when I discuss such issues. Now I can respect an opinion, there's nothing wrong with you having one. Heck, everyone has one. Opinions don't hold up all that well in arguments unless there's a certain logic to them. Unfortunately "New York released Joseph, therefore he isn't elite" is a little b&w for my taste, and that's why I dismissed your opinion.

Come back with some facts and maybe I'll take your argument a little more seriously.
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