Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

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J. Kapp 11
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:20 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:49 pm
Easton was terrible at LG last season so I still blame them. We still don't have a RG. Even is Easton was healthy and not below average, we would still have Remmers or Compton playing a guard position and being below average.
Pretty general comment.

Let's remember, the Vikings finished 7th in the NFL in rushing offense last year with Easton playing LG. This year, we're 31st. Joe Berger was also in there, which certainly helped, but Easton was known to have a nasty streak, especially on running plays. Don't tell me his loss didn't hurt, especially on the ground. Pass protection isn't the only aspect of offensive line play.

Another loss was Aviante Collins, another guy who, while less experienced, also has that love of knocking people around. Collins was playing well in preseason before he went down.

Perhaps the biggest loss of all was Tony Sparano.

The truth is, once the season starts, it's pretty hard to fix an O-line. Every team out there covets capable players at those positions, so they're not just going to give them up. I get your frustration. We all do. But your ideas have no more potential to fix the O-line than standing pat. Meanwhile, doing something desperate like moving your best tackle to guard has every potential to blow up in the Vikings' faces.
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Pondering Her Percy
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:25 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:20 pm
Pretty general comment.

Let's remember, the Vikings finished 7th in the NFL in rushing offense last year with Easton playing LG. This year, we're 31st. Joe Berger was also in there, which certainly helped, but Easton was known to have a nasty streak, especially on running plays. Don't tell me his loss didn't hurt, especially on the ground. Pass protection isn't the only aspect of offensive line play.

Another loss was Aviante Collins, another guy who, while less experienced, also has that love of knocking people around. Collins was playing well in preseason before he went down.

Perhaps the biggest loss of all was Tony Sparano.

The truth is, once the season starts, it's pretty hard to fix an O-line. Every team out there covets capable players at those positions, so they're not just going to give them up. I get your frustration. We all do. But your ideas have no more potential to fix the O-line than standing pat. Meanwhile, doing something desperate like moving your best tackle to guard has every potential to blow up in the Vikings' faces.
Good post Kapp. Also, I didnt realize it until I heard it the other day but Sparano also held the title of "Run Game Coordinator" for us as well as offensive line coach. That could be part of the rushing offense hitting a wall as well. Although again, if scores in these games we've played were different, I think the running numbers would be drastically different.

Easton was an average to below average OG. But definitely serviceable. Berger was a huge loss. He was very underrated.
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by S197 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:15 pm

Compton, Easton, Isidora, Collins... they're all interchangeable. As in, not very good. The problem is we neglected the most glaring problem on the team (Hernandez is rated as one of the top guards right now BTW) and it was painfully obvious to everyone outside the front office. But, no point in crying over spilt milk.

So at this point, what is the solution? We can do the musical chairs thing, and it may help, but I don't think it will be a major improvement. I think we should look at a trade and upgrading Compton. O'Neill looks a lot better than I thought he would but our interior remains a big problem.

There are a lot of teams that are hurting from injuries. KC is on a Super Bowl run and they're practicing Marcus Kemp (a WR) as their emergency safety. Atlanta, Seattle, Bucs, Eagles... are all hurting as well. We have Iloka and Anthony Harris that are likely starters on another team. And Kearse. The FA market for safeties is abysmal. We should be calling these teams and seeing if they're willing to move someone, we have enough depth at safety that we can afford to lose one if it means replacing Compton or Remmers.
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by VikingLord » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:25 pm

How about do nothing with the offensive line?

That might sound like heresy, but it is an option, and here is why I don't think it is a terrible option.

- As Kapp pointed out, swapping offensive linemen in, out or around for non-injury reasons during a season is a really bad sign. That means the guys who won the starting spots in camp are now playing so poorly that a guy who didn't win a spot is deemed a better option. Pretty rare to see that happen and I while I don't have any stats to back up the claim, not likely to result in massive improvement at the particular position that was swapped, nor improve continuity and effective teamwork along the rest of the offensive line either.
- In 2 of the 5 games the Vikings have played so far, the team got so far behind so fast that running wasn't really an option. Sure, the Vikings still suck in rushing yards per game and yards per attempt, but they also are near the bottom in total attempts, and those include quarterback scrambles. I guess my point here is yes, the offensive line hasn't been opening gaping holes or anything, but the Vikings also haven't tried to run all that much compared to other teams in the league. The Vikings have a total of 96 rushing attempts so far, while the top team (Cleveland) has 153. I'd expect more focus on the run game if the offense can get ahead and/or the defense can keep the score close.
- Philly is the 2nd rated rush defense in the league, and while the Vikings didn't pile it up against them, they did manage 77 yards on 23 attempts for a 3.3 average without Dalvin Cook. Murray ended up with 42 yards on 11 attempts for a respectable 3.8 YPC average.

I think it's likely that the offensive line, like the defense, has played about as poorly as they are going to play all year. It isn't a great unit with a lot of established talent, but I think there is reason to believe the entire unit can and will play better as the season goes on. If the Vikings can get Cook healthy and effective, he'll make the unit look better too, at least statistically. Murray is a pretty effective runner after contact as he's shown throughout his career, but he doesn't have the second gear, so while he breaks tackles, he is slowed enough for help to arrive. Cook is a little more dynamic. If he makes the first guy miss or gets through a tackle attempt, he can accelerate away from the help and pick up more yardage, and that helps the stats even if the offensive linemen aren't opening the highway. Lastly, the defense can't possibly play worse than they've played to start the season. Yes, the offense put them in some bad spots, but they've played poorly and have allowed the score to get away from the team, forcing the offense to become more one-dimensional. Better defense means the offense can afford to focus more on rushing, especially later in games, and that should help them be more effective.
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by Purple Domination » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:14 pm

What happened to Demi? I miss that guy. We could use his negativity in a thread like this.
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:37 pm

Purple Domination wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:14 pm
What happened to Demi? I miss that guy. We could use his negativity in a thread like this.
Lol I don’t miss him....at all
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by Cliff » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:16 am

Purple Domination wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:14 pm
What happened to Demi? I miss that guy. We could use his negativity in a thread like this.
You might see him again if the team loses enough games lol

Seriously though, looks like he hasn't been back since they turned it around last year.
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by mansquatch » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:34 pm

Cliff wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:16 am
You might see him again if the team loses enough games lol

Seriously though, looks like he hasn't been back since they turned it around last year.
I've long pondered a private theory that there are certain elements on this board that really only know how to be negative on the Vikings. When we are winning it can get pretty quiet around here.
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by mansquatch » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:36 pm

S197 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:15 pm
Compton, Easton, Isidora, Collins... they're all interchangeable. As in, not very good. The problem is we neglected the most glaring problem on the team (Hernandez is rated as one of the top guards right now BTW) and it was painfully obvious to everyone outside the front office. But, no point in crying over spilt milk.

So at this point, what is the solution? We can do the musical chairs thing, and it may help, but I don't think it will be a major improvement. I think we should look at a trade and upgrading Compton. O'Neill looks a lot better than I thought he would but our interior remains a big problem.

There are a lot of teams that are hurting from injuries. KC is on a Super Bowl run and they're practicing Marcus Kemp (a WR) as their emergency safety. Atlanta, Seattle, Bucs, Eagles... are all hurting as well. We have Iloka and Anthony Harris that are likely starters on another team. And Kearse. The FA market for safeties is abysmal. We should be calling these teams and seeing if they're willing to move someone, we have enough depth at safety that we can afford to lose one if it means replacing Compton or Remmers.
This is a smart post. Trading one of the depth Safeties would be a great risk/reward moving assuming the offer on the other side is of reasonably value. The challenge is at this stage every NFL team understands the issues with college OL prospects so they are likely to covet what they have. Then again, safety has always been a hard position to draft so that might make it a wash.
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by 808vikingsfan » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:24 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:37 pm
Lol I don’t miss him....at all
Do miss his avatar. Fit his personality perfectly.
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by PacificNorseWest » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:52 pm

The problem with the trading the safety idea is that there isn't a market for safeties right now and there won't be unless someone gets hurt.

Eric Reid was one of the better safeties in the league the past few seasons and it took an injury at that position for Carolina to finally sign him some 3 weeks into the regular season. Earl Thomas was said to be on the block for months, but no one was interested enough to do what was needed to make the move and he has been the best or top 2 safety in the NFL for years now. Then Bengals out of nowhere decided they no longer need Iloka and again, another serviceable, team leader type that has value as a starter in this league.

Not to mention that all but a few teams could use Oline help and it's so hard to find quality lineman that I doubt most teams would care to trade player for player without some sort of draft pick being involved.
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by S197 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:59 pm

PacificNorseWest wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:52 pm
The problem with the trading the safety idea is that there isn't a market for safeties right now and there won't be unless someone gets hurt.
I'm not sure if you read my post but there are a ton of injuries and teams looking for help. The Chiefs are using a WR right now as an "emergency S" they are so desperate. They also were reportedly close to a deal for Earl Thomas prior to his injury.

The landscape for safeties has changed dramatically since the beginning of the season, just look at who is available.
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by PacificNorseWest » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:19 pm

Injuries, yes. But outside of the Chiefs, who is looking for a safety and willing to give up a player in a position as scarce as an Olineman?

Yes, they were reportedly close to getting Earl, but they were going to give a draft pick and not a player. It was also only reported. Regardless, Eric Berry is due back this season -- another highly touted NFL safety. They may not be desperate for long and I don't think they want to trade a lineman protecting their 2nd year QB who is lighting up the league. Maybe and hopefully I'm wrong on that (If Minnesota's Oline situation remains the same), but I don't see too many teams in the league so comfortable up front that they can trade someone away player for player.

And not just a player, but a quality offensive lineman.
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by YikesVikes » Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:39 am

VikingLord wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:25 pm
How about do nothing with the offensive line?

That might sound like heresy, but it is an option, and here is why I don't think it is a terrible option.

- As Kapp pointed out, swapping offensive linemen in, out or around for non-injury reasons during a season is a really bad sign. That means the guys who won the starting spots in camp are now playing so poorly that a guy who didn't win a spot is deemed a better option. Pretty rare to see that happen and I while I don't have any stats to back up the claim, not likely to result in massive improvement at the particular position that was swapped, nor improve continuity and effective teamwork along the rest of the offensive line either.
- In 2 of the 5 games the Vikings have played so far, the team got so far behind so fast that running wasn't really an option. Sure, the Vikings still suck in rushing yards per game and yards per attempt, but they also are near the bottom in total attempts, and those include quarterback scrambles. I guess my point here is yes, the offensive line hasn't been opening gaping holes or anything, but the Vikings also haven't tried to run all that much compared to other teams in the league. The Vikings have a total of 96 rushing attempts so far, while the top team (Cleveland) has 153. I'd expect more focus on the run game if the offense can get ahead and/or the defense can keep the score close.
- Philly is the 2nd rated rush defense in the league, and while the Vikings didn't pile it up against them, they did manage 77 yards on 23 attempts for a 3.3 average without Dalvin Cook. Murray ended up with 42 yards on 11 attempts for a respectable 3.8 YPC average.

I think it's likely that the offensive line, like the defense, has played about as poorly as they are going to play all year. It isn't a great unit with a lot of established talent, but I think there is reason to believe the entire unit can and will play better as the season goes on. If the Vikings can get Cook healthy and effective, he'll make the unit look better too, at least statistically. Murray is a pretty effective runner after contact as he's shown throughout his career, but he doesn't have the second gear, so while he breaks tackles, he is slowed enough for help to arrive. Cook is a little more dynamic. If he makes the first guy miss or gets through a tackle attempt, he can accelerate away from the help and pick up more yardage, and that helps the stats even if the offensive linemen aren't opening the highway. Lastly, the defense can't possibly play worse than they've played to start the season. Yes, the offense put them in some bad spots, but they've played poorly and have allowed the score to get away from the team, forcing the offense to become more one-dimensional. Better defense means the offense can afford to focus more on rushing, especially later in games, and that should help them be more effective.
Its sad when 3.8 yards is considered respectable. Why do we always think that good enough is ok until it bites us in the #### come playoff time?
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by YikesVikes » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:22 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:20 pm
Pretty general comment.

Let's remember, the Vikings finished 7th in the NFL in rushing offense last year with Easton playing LG. This year, we're 31st. Joe Berger was also in there, which certainly helped, but Easton was known to have a nasty streak, especially on running plays. Don't tell me his loss didn't hurt, especially on the ground. Pass protection isn't the only aspect of offensive line play.

Another loss was Aviante Collins, another guy who, while less experienced, also has that love of knocking people around. Collins was playing well in preseason before he went down.

Perhaps the biggest loss of all was Tony Sparano.

The truth is, once the season starts, it's pretty hard to fix an O-line. Every team out there covets capable players at those positions, so they're not just going to give them up. I get your frustration. We all do. But your ideas have no more potential to fix the O-line than standing pat. Meanwhile, doing something desperate like moving your best tackle to guard has every potential to blow up in the Vikings' faces.
I wager we were 7th in rushing inspite of Easton, not because of him. Collins? Are you kidding me? Look, I know its easy to scrape for any reason why our run game is bad besides the fact that the FO has constructed a POS online but that's what they have done. We need improvements at 3 out of 5 positions. The sad thing is, we will probably look OK running the ball this week becauase Cards are dead last against the run and all will be solved.
Last edited by YikesVikes on Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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