Vikes Ol unmasked

[Pondering Her Percy]

I've done quite a bit more than that but It's as if you didn't even read what I wrote.

Deconstructing the argument doesn't change the bottom line: they didn't do enough to improve the line from top to bottom. You keep bringing up that they were bit by the injury bug but the whole point is that they didn't do enough to prepare for that possibility.

I was talking about guard because guard was the vacant spot on the o-line. If they were determined to fill that spot with Harris (and I doubt that was their first choice) they could have made other moves that would have resulted in a stronger OL depth chart.
Versatility doesn't make a player good. It would be more accurate right now to say Clemmings can't play either tackle spot. As you said he isn't ready and if he isn't ready, he doesn't represent very good depth because he can't adequately do the job.
Is someone suggesting the Vikings should be set at every position? You're giving me platitudes. If they had drafted an o-lineman in in the first two rounds they wouldn't have had either Kendricks or Waynes. I'd be fine with that. As I've pointed out again and again, with a running back as their best offensive player and a developing QB in his second season, the OL should be high priority. Pass protection and run blocking are crucial anyway but all the more so under the circumstances.

I'm surrender. There's obviously no argument that's going to sway you from your defense of Spielman on this subject.

There are definitely things Spielman has done that I haven't been pleased with but the way I look at is, losing 2 of your best lineman, it's extremely hard to recover from that no matter what way you look at it. Someone mentioned the Packers could recover from it before but they had Marshall Newhouse starting for 2-3 straight years and did nothing about it and he was worse than any lineman we have. They had a younger developing QB and couldn't find an adequate LT to save their life. They also had Jeff Saturday during that time who was also terrible at that point of his career. They had hardly anything for backups either. They've had their fair share of patch-work offensive lines over the years

[John_Viveiros]

I've always (okay, maybe just in the last few "post-Tice" years) wanted to beef up the offensive line. But I really thought they addressed the issue pretty well in the draft and the trade, and some attempts at FA's. But the draft is a real crapshoot these days with respect to linemen. So many of them have been underwhelming. It's not like it was before, when a 1st round offensive lineman in the teens and twenties was usually a pretty solid starter, especially for us (McDaniel, Steussie, Stringer).

I was pretty happy with the "lack of attention" (as some of you seem to think) to the offensive line, in the sense that I thought we tried to address some other issues like MLB, WR, a long term CB, etc. I thought those were more important than OL depth. It turns out I was probably wrong, but I don't think the thought process was bad.

[Mothman]

There are definitely things Spielman has done that I haven't been pleased with but the way I look at is, losing 2 of your best lineman, it's extremely hard to recover from that no matter what way you look at it. Someone mentioned the Packers could recover from it before but they had Marshall Newhouse starting for 2-3 straight years and did nothing about it and he was worse than any lineman we have. They had a younger developing QB and couldn't find an adequate LT to save their life. They also had Jeff Saturday during that time who was also terrible at that point of his career. They had hardly anything for backups either. They've had their fair share of patch-work offensive lines over the years

I understand but to me, all of the above just reinforces the wisdom of building a very strong l the strongest OL depth chart possible in an effort to avoid those pitfalls and crises.

I've always (okay, maybe just in the last few "post-Tice" years) wanted to beef up the offensive line. But I really thought they addressed the issue pretty well in the draft and the trade, and some attempts at FA's. But the draft is a real crapshoot these days with respect to linemen. So many of them have been underwhelming. It's not like it was before, when a 1st round offensive lineman in the teens and twenties was usually a pretty solid starter, especially for us (McDaniel, Steussie, Stringer).

I was pretty happy with the "lack of attention" (as some of you seem to think) to the offensive line, in the sense that I thought we tried to address some other issues like MLB, WR, a long term CB, etc. I thought those were more important than OL depth. It turns out I was probably wrong, but I don't think the thought process was bad.

I understood the thought process too. I just didn't like it but we all have our own ideas of how a team should be built. Spielman and I have different priorities.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I've always (okay, maybe just in the last few "post-Tice" years) wanted to beef up the offensive line. But I really thought they addressed the issue pretty well in the draft and the trade, and some attempts at FA's. But the draft is a real crapshoot these days with respect to linemen. So many of them have been underwhelming. It's not like it was before, when a 1st round offensive lineman in the teens and twenties was usually a pretty solid starter, especially for us (McDaniel, Steussie, Stringer).

I was pretty happy with the "lack of attention" (as some of you seem to think) to the offensive line, in the sense that I thought we tried to address some other issues like MLB, WR, a long term CB, etc. I thought those were more important than OL depth. It turns out I was probably wrong, but I don't think the thought process was bad.

I agree. We have good offensive lineman and at the time, they were all healthy. We've lacked a MLB for a long time now and were hurting when it came to run defense so I think Kendricks was a great pick. And when you look at CB, we would have been relying on an aging veteran that we "hoped" would be a solid starter (which I think he's been pretty decent for the most part) and if he sucked or went down, we would be back to Captain on the outside. Those two positions were much more glaring at the time than a healthy offensive line

[Mothman]

I agree. We have good offensive lineman and at the time, they were all healthy. We've lacked a MLB for a long time now and were hurting when it came to run defense so I think Kendricks was a great pick. And when you look at CB, we would have been relying on an aging veteran that we "hoped" would be a solid starter (which I think he's been pretty decent for the most part) and if he sucked or went down, we would be back to Captain on the outside. Those two positions were much more glaring at the time than a healthy offensive line

They didn't have a starting guard. It doesn't get much more glaring than that. I know they settled on Harris for the position but the idea that guard wasn't a big need going into the draft is highly debatable at best. Heck, it's been a need for years.

[PurpleKoolaid]

They didn't have a starting guard. It doesn't get much more glaring than that. I know they settled on Harris for the position but the idea that guard wasn't a big need going to the draft is highly debatable at best. Heck, it's been a need for years.

I would go a step further Jim, its been a HUGE NEED. We wearnt stacked there before Johnson, so much so he played here for years, and we couldnt get a replacement in. That is some very serious suckage by Rick et el.

[chicagopurple]

I am not a GM/scout for a highly successful NFL team (heck I am not even a GM for a fantasy team), so I like to look at the behaviors of those who HAVE reached that level in their careers. When you do so, you will see that perennial winners always emphasize the stability and investment in their OL. ITs not new. Its actually one of the ancient tenets of football. You build up from a strong OL. Look back at those few periods in the Vikes history in the last 3 decades when we DID have a strong offense and we had kick-#### OL players. That has been missing from this team for awhile now. Khalil is a bust, Sully is the closest thing we have to a top notch guy and that is stretching it. Having a thin crappy OL will end up with Teddy injured or suffering from PTSD. AP is a bit of an exception in that he has shown he can break off big runs despite having no holes created by the OL but that is piss-poor game plan. The Vikes MUST invest in the OL before AP is too old and Teddy is crippled.

[IrishViking]

I am not a GM/scout for a highly successful NFL team (heck I am not even a GM for a fantasy team), so I like to look at the behaviors of those who HAVE reached that level in their careers. When you do so, you will see that perennial winners always emphasize the stability and investment in their OL. ITs not new. Its actually one of the ancient tenets of football. You build up from a strong OL. Look back at those few periods in the Vikes history in the last 3 decades when we DID have a strong offense and we had kick-#### OL players. That has been missing from this team for awhile now. Khalil is a bust, Sully is the closest thing we have to a top notch guy and that is stretching it. Having a thin crappy OL will end up with Teddy injured or suffering from PTSD. AP is a bit of an exception in that he has shown he can break off big runs despite having no holes created by the OL but that is piss-poor game plan. The Vikes MUST invest in the OL before AP is too old and Teddy is crippled.

? Kalil is having a solid if not well above average year. If he plays at this level from now on he is gonna be an anchor...

[dead_poet]

They went into the offseason with 4 starters and Harris, knowing they had a hole to address at left guard. If they'd addressed that hole in free agency or by drafting one of the top guards in the draft, and also retained Harris, that difference alone would have left them in a better position right now. If they'd signed a veteran guard to start, Harris would be the primary backup to Loadholt and based on how he performed last season, I think the right tackle position would be in better shape than it is with Clemmings, even though there's a drop-off from Loadholt to Harris.

If they had drafted one of the top guards, he could be starting or, if they actually preferred to start Harris at guard, that talented rookie would then be the primary backup at guard and Harris could still slide out to tackle if necessary. This would likely have yielded a better situation than they have now too.

That's all with just one different move.

To play devil's advocate, they did sign a free agent guard: Joe Berger. As it turns out, it's a good thing they did. I was also hoping they'd sign Boling but all signs were pointing to Boling wanting to re-sign with Cincy (which he did with a five-year, $25 million contract) so I'm not sure how realistic he truly was without "overpaying", which I'm sure you'll agree is not a smart thing to do either.

Rick also re-signed Harris and traded for Jeremiah Sirles (after the fact but it was still a move he made for what I've read to be a decent lineman). He also drafted Clemmings, Tyrus Thompson and Austin Shepherd. The case could be made that he should've drafted a lineman higher but let's take a look at that.

Brandon Scherff: Even though the Vikings couldn't have drafted him without moving up he's not been very good to date, particularly in pass protection

Ereck Flowers: Also couldn't have drafted due to going #9 overall but has been a liability thus far for the Giants (but has been decent in the run game). -9.3 overall rating by PFF

Andrus Peat: The first lineman on the board the Vikings could have drafted. He's not starting so it's hard to gauge him. He wasn't very good in the preseason.

Cameron Erving: One of the guys I wanted to draft over Waynes. He's running with the backups at right guard, but has also seen time at left tackle. PFF has graded him -4.2 in the preseason but he hasn't seen the field enough to be able to judge.

Cedric Ogbuehi: On the reserve/NFI list. Safe to say he wouldn't have been helping us.

D.J. Humphries: Graded negatively as a pass-protector in each of his three games in the preseason, getting worse game by game. Against the Raiders he surrendered a sack, hit and hurry in 36 snaps. He's apparently not close to being ready to be on the field and Arians has had some...colorful things to say about him (not positive). He wouldn't have been an upgrade.

Laken Tomlinson: Has been a starter/backup based on injuries and has not looked good. The Lions running game in general is a mess and Tomlinson shares some responsibility for that. -5.8 grade on PFF to date.

If we dip into the second round...

Donovan Smith: Tampa Bay's offensive line is a mess and Smith is a contributor to that. Before getting injured he was pretty bad overall. PFF gave him a -3.1 grade in week 1 with an even worse showing in week two. His -4.9 overall grade ranked him 54th among 62 OTs; he was particularly bad as a run blocker, where his -4.7 grade ranked 60th.

Mitch Morse: Who? I guess this guy was drafted 49th overall. To his credit the center seems like one of the best rookie offensive linemen. PFF likes him:

Mitch Morse, C, Chiefs (+3.0)

The biggest compliment you can give Morse is that you haven’t noticed him. Center is such a vital position that it’s hard for a rookie to earn enough trust to crack the starting lineup. The fact that Morse has slipped straight in and made the Chiefs forget about Rodney Hudson is even more of an accomplishment.

So he was available if you wanted to draft him over Eric Kendricks. Of course, what you gain here we lose at LB without Kendricks. And even if the Vikings did sign him, I doubt he would've been trusted to start over Berger.

Rob Havenstein: I honestly have no idea how Haverstein has been playing.

Ty Sambrailo: Has been a liability

Ali Marpet: Has struggled

Jeremiah Poutasi: I don't know much but PFF has said he's struggled, particularly in week 3

It was a tough day for rookie RT Jeremiah Poutasi (-2.2) who finished with a team-worst -3.6 run block grade. He had a hard time sealing off the edge, and the Titans gained only 20 yards on 11 carries when running either inside or outside of his block.

In week 2 he was -1.8 overall, but +1.4 as a run blocker.

A.J. Cann: Not starting

Boling. I wonder just how hard they actually pursued him. There were options out there (Franklin, Mathis, Lupati, Incognito... although I didn't want the latter).

I touched on Boling above. Franklin was out of the Vikings' price range at the start (signed with Denver for $7.3 million annually and $20 million in guarantees). Iupati was also too pricey (signed for $8 million/avg) and besides, he is just now able to get on the field after his knee injury. Mathis would've been a one-year stopgap but from what I've read he's holding his own in Denver and was available for a long time so he could have been an option. I don't think Incognito fits the profile of player the front office and coaching staff was looking for so I won't consider him an option.

Harris has actually acquitted himself pretty decently from what I've seen (granted I don't focus on him exclusively) and beat reporters, the coaching staff and PFF have had positive things to say about his performance (though I haven't heard or read anything about his Denver performance). I'm not sure Mathis would've necessarily been a noticeable upgrade at the position but it's possible. However you also have to think about experience as well. You mention Patterson needing to see the field more to get better at his craft, the same case could be made for Harris (or Clemmings, I suppose). If Harris is to man the position going forward, he's going to need the reps he's getting (really I'm just talking about a Mathis vs. Harris debate in this instance).

But you also need to keep in mind the financials and cap space. I believe the Vikings have: 6th-highest-paid RT, 10th highest-paid overall guard, 11th highest-paid center. The only savings is Kalil still on his rookie contract (still 20th highest-paid LT). Signing Iupati/Franklin would've also then given them either the #3 or #4 highest-paid other guard. Boling would've cost them the 9th highest-paid guard. Simply put, there's already quite a bit invested in the offensive line from either a financial (Sullivan, Fusco, Loadholt) or draft pick (Kalil, Loadholt) perspective and Kalil might end up being a sticky negotiation but there's a chance he gets paid/extended this offseason putting a few million dollars more into this line.

So I will say that you're right, there were some options available but when you evaluate them and those able to be an asset right now, the number of positive options goes down. Right now the biggest problems seem to be Berger and Clemmings. Unfortunately few of the options mentioned above are quality tackles or centers. Yes, if the Vikings had signed Mathis or Morse than Harris could be kicked to right tackle and maybe that's what should have been done. But doing so (at least with a draft pick) would've been at a cost of another player (Kendricks most likely, or Waynes) and I'm not sure that would've been a wise decision because what you're gaining on offense you're potentially losing on defense. If we didn't draft Waynes (OL instead) we'd be lacking in DB depth even more than we already are and next offseason we'd be hurting even more for another good corner.

I also agree that I don't know of many teams that can lose their starting center and right tackle and not have the performance of the line suffer as a result (maybe guys like Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady and Peyton Manning can due to their other-worldliness). If anything, what makes this so frustrating that, if operating at full capacity with Kalil somehow back on track and Harris being serviceable at full strength our line as a whole may have been a positional group of strength this season. Imagine that!

With the way things are going, it will be a very interesting offseason for the offensive line.

1) What does Rick do about Kalil? If he continues to play decently I think you have to make an offer to extend, especially given the nothing behind him. But how rich is the offer and with Kalil's history can Rick be certain Kalil will stay healthy for another 4-5 years? I wouldn't count on it so I would think another LT draft pick (fairly high like rounds 1-3) is necessary, especially for depth. I don't even know who is the #2 LT right now. Sirles? Shepherd? Yikes.

2) Loadholt is due $5.4 million next season, the last year of his deal. He'll be 30. Perhaps the Vikings let him play out his contract and re-assess (franchise tag possibility?). Extend him for another two seasons? Phil is well liked and is a solid right tackle in the NFL even if he gets beat by speed rushers on occasion. I have a hard time believing the Vikings would let him go. Perhaps some of this hinges on his rehab and what they see after 16(+?) games out of Clemmings but for 2016 I would think Loadholt returns as starter and Clemmings as a backup with a season of experience under his belt. One could say that would be decent depth at this position.

3) What to do about Sullivan? I'm afraid he's breaking down. He's signed through 2017 (his age 33 season). If I'm the Vikings, I'm drafting/grooming his replacement next season (will Rick see if he can mine gold again in later rounds? Given his track record, probably). But it is possible that Sully has a couple of years of above-average production left if he can stay on the field. Berger is signed through 2016 so if they spend a draft pick here they should be set in 2016. Even if they don't if Sullivan can stay healthy and with Berger backing him up we should at least be OK at center.

4) There's no question mark with Fusco. But there is at backup. Perhaps that's where Sirles comes in. Sirles is a RFA after this season. The Vikings gave up a sixth-rounder for him and if they like what they see I imagine they keep him somehow. Seems to be a decent young player and would be a nice depth signing. And there's a couple of young draft picks that could develop.

I guess I'll have to see how things shake out but when two starters on any position group go down there are going to be consequences and the play of the group and individuals usually goes down from the starters. That's just the way it is. Offensive scheming can help determine to what degree. I think this could apply to any position group. I don't feel the Vikings are necessarily any different from any other team as far as amount and quality of depth. There might be a few teams (Dallas, Cincy) that wouldn't feel a hit to the offensive line as much as the Vikings have, but I would say those teams are more the exceptions than the rule. Teams like Seattle, San Diego, etc. have been hit equally as hard (or harder) than we have and you see the same results yourself. I'd be curious as to the teams you think can sustain these types of hits without being as negatively affected as Minnesota.

I'm frustrated, too, Jim, but after watching Harris play and understanding how difficult it is to survive two starters going down on the offensive line I'm not quite as critical at Rick. I look at Philly and if we were them and Rick released/traded two decent starters and the result was an abysmal offensive line that has trouble with protection and can't open a running lane to save their lives I'd be livid because that was by design, not injury. And you could make the case that if you're getting comparable production out of Harris for $1.5 million that you would've gotten out of, say, Boling ($3.4 million) or Mathis ($2.5 million) that that's actually a good/smart move.

I will say that I do think the Vikings could use more depth (pretty much any team could say that) and I would hope Rick signs some more guys this offseason. But with the way Kalil and Harris have done to this point makes me think at full strength we wouldn't be having this conversation (at least not to this degree). Losing Sullivan and Loadholt is a big kick to the nuts, and if it happened to any other team they'd be down on the ground in the fetal position with us. YMMV.

[IrishViking]

Well put. Glad to see someone had some patience to look up the numbers on it. Obviously if Rick had known this was going to happen he should have sold out to shore up the line, but he couldn't. If you are assuming the Vikings should be built to lose 2 top pieces of depth chart at ANY position I think that's a bit much. Right now it looks likes the Vikings has a modicum of depth at Dline, Runningback, and WR. I would probably trade WR depth for Oline depth but it is what it is.

[fiestavike]

Obviously there are deficiencies at certain positions, and it irks me that the main position of weakness is the offensive line, which, if I were building a team, would be the strongest, BUT...I think the Vikings are in pretty good shape overall. Going into this off-season, how many positions do we have a glaring need for upgrade? Fewer than we have had at any point in the last two decades? S is obvious, MLB perhaps (but we have young options there) RT (again we have young options, revisit after season). Beyond that we have the luxury to look at positions where we ARE getting serviceable play for upgrades, DE, G, OLB, WR, RB, QB2?

Its pretty damn remarkable improvement in the quality of this roster, and its highlighted by guys like Peters and Mauti being on the active rosters of other teams. Furthermore, by the end of the season even some of those positions highlighted above might well be strengths.

[John_Viveiros]

...The case could be made that he should've drafted a lineman higher but let's take a look at that.

Brandon Scherff: Even though the Vikings couldn't have drafted him without moving up he's not been very good to date, particularly in pass protection

(deleted)

Wow. Thanks for all the research into that, DP!

I really wanted for the Vikes to draft Scherff, and I would have been wrong based on what I've heard of him so far. I knew that rookie OL's have been struggling, but that's really an amazingly long list of "bust"-ible players.

One of the sites I frequently visit had Clemmings as one of the top 5 OL's from this draft so far. I can't find it - sorry. I see that PFF had him in the top ten of all players drafted for a while, but he's fallen out of the top ten (which really isn't bad for a guy drafted around #150).

[fiestavike]

Well put. Glad to see someone had some patience to look up the numbers on it. Obviously if Rick had known this was going to happen he should have sold out to shore up the line, but he couldn't. If you are assuming the Vikings should be built to lose 2 top pieces of depth chart at ANY position I think that's a bit much. Right now it looks likes the Vikings has a modicum of depth at Dline, Runningback, and WR. I would probably trade WR depth for Oline depth but it is what it is.

Also, Carter Bykowski played well in the preseason, and was highlighted by Zimmer for his strong performance early in the offseason activities. What can guys like Shepherd, Bykowski, and Sirles and Clemmings develop into? They may all be failures, but San Diego fans seemed to like Sirles a lot, Clemmings is getting a trial by fire, the other two are probably longer shots.

[dead_poet]

Right now it looks likes the Vikings has a modicum of depth at Dline, Runningback, and WR.

I'd also add linebacker and tight end to that list. Perhaps even quarterback with what we saw out of Heinicke.

[dead_poet]

I really wanted for the Vikes to draft Scherff, and I would have been wrong based on what I've heard of him so far. I knew that rookie OL's have been struggling, but that's really an amazingly long list of "bust"-ible players.

It's super rare for offensive linemen to come in and be assets (or "dominate" early). Guys like Zack Martin are pretty rare (and it helps to have very good players surrounding him). So while the rookies are performing like rookies right now, I don't expect all of them to "bust" out. In fact, I'd bet on at least one or two of those players to eventually make a Pro Bowl or two (probably Scherff, because he's a Hawk!).

One of the sites I frequently visit had Clemmings as one of the top 5 OL's from this draft so far. I can't find it - sorry. I see that PFF had him in the top ten of all players drafted for a while, but he's fallen out of the top ten (which really isn't bad for a guy drafted around #150).

Yeah, I'm sure after his rough week 4 he's going to be dropping pretty hard in a lot of rankings. But I don't know of any rookies that could've done much better against Phillips and those pass rushers. Maybe he'll get the chance for a rematch in three or four years and come out on top. Right now he's way too green, but that's to be expected.